Hot Tub wiring - addition of outlet

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  #1  
Old 06-09-14, 01:03 PM
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Hot Tub wiring - addition of outlet

I am looking to install a hot tub. The tub will sit just outside the house with new wiring from the main panel in the house to the new hot tub disconnect.

The installation is in Massachusetts (adopted NEC 2014) and it will be inspected.

In addition to the hot tub, I understand I need to have an outlet 10-20 ft from the tub, and the nearest one I have is ~25 ft.

I also might add lighting for the area.

The hot tub needs 40A.

The new wiring between the main panel and disconnect is about 55 ft, of which 30 ft within the building and 25 on the building. The distance disconnect to hot tub is about 6 feet straight line (about 12 feet of wire).

I plan gauge 6 THHN/THWN cable red+white+blue and gauge 10 THHN/THWN white cable as a feeder into the hot tub disconnect CH40SPA (Eaton / Cutler Hammer) for a disconnect. Install breaker in the house main panel 60 AMP and have the hot tub connected to 40 AMP GFCI breaker CH240GF within the disconnect.

The CH40SPA has two extra circuits for additional loads. Can I add another breaker to CH40SPA and use it to feed the area outlet and potentially lights?

Or do I need to pull another circuit from the main panel in the house for the outlet/lights.

Reason for the question is that somebody said that the feeder to the hot tub breaker needs to be dedicated and one can not pull another circuit from the disconnect box for other purpose (such as the outlet).

I can not find the answer in the NEC one way or another. Could somebody advise if what I want to do is legitimate or not, please. A reference to NEC saying why can or can not would be great help.

Thank you in advance for the help.
 
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Old 06-09-14, 01:22 PM
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somebody said that the feeder to the hot tub breaker needs to be dedicated and one can not pull another circuit from the disconnect box for other purpose
General purpose 120 volt receptacles must be on a fuse or breaker no grater than 20 amps. If the disconnect is not a subpanel you can't but if the disconnect is you can put in a 20 amp breaker for a receptacle.
Can I add another breaker to CH40SPA and use it to feed the area outlet and potentially lights?
Yes, if there is a space.

The confusion in what you read may be that disconnect usually means a panel with no additional spaces for a breaker or fuse. It is just a fused or unfused switch for a single circuit.
The CH40SPA has two extra circuits for additional loads.
So you are using a subpanel as a disconnect.
 
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Old 06-09-14, 01:31 PM
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and gauge 10 THHN/THWN white cable as a feeder into the hot tub disconnect
I would change that to #8 green.

What are you setting the tub on ? Part of the new code deals with additional grounds around the tub called Equipotential grounds.
 
  #4  
Old 06-09-14, 01:35 PM
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Thank you very much Ray.

It appears that there is as a matter of fact the 4 spaces in the disconnect, two of which are occupied by the 40amp double pole for the hot tub, and 2 are available.

So, it sounds then that I am good and I can do what I wanted, install additional breaker in the same disconnect subpanel and pull the receptacle of it, right?

Can you point me out where in NEC it says that this is acceptable?
 
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Old 06-09-14, 01:39 PM
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By any slang name such as subpanel to the NEC it is just another service panel and there are no restriction on the types of uses for breakers in a service panel.
 
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Old 06-09-14, 02:25 PM
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I would change that to #8 green.
Thank you. I thought I need to use Table 250.122 which says #10 copper for up to 60A. Did I read it wrong? Should I be using 250.66? Or is #8 better practice vs to NEC requirement?

What are you setting the tub on ? Part of the new code deals with additional grounds around the tub called Equipotential grounds.
I am afraid, I may not be fully aware of the details. Thank you for pointing it out.

So here are the details... The tub will sit on the existing concrete patio ~ 3 inches from the patio edge. There is a metal 4x4 post supporting deck within 8 inches from the tub. The stairs to raised wooden deck 1 feet away and the deck overhangs the tub by 16 inches.

I understood that the tub will need to be bonded with #8 wire to the metal 4x4 post; the other end of the bonding wire will connect to internal bonding grid of the tub.

Do I need to bond anything else?

I thought I do not need any other bonding, i.e. perimeter bonding, or bonding to the concrete patio, or equipotential bonding grid on concrete slabs, or anything like that.

Actually thought that at some point there was a language requiring installing the grid in the existing concrete, but it has went away.
 
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Old 06-09-14, 02:57 PM
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Depending on the code cycle changes the bonding requirements. Some cycles would require the concrete to be bonded.
 
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Old 06-09-14, 03:10 PM
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Here....in NJ.... the last inspector I dealt with requested the #8 green which I run anyway. I treat the spa/tub like a pool when it comes to grounding.

He also requested the bonding #8 around the tub as it was sitting on pavers. The wire was run 18" around the tub in the dirt before it was covered with wood chips.

At another job I had to bond the re-rod in the cement.
 
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Old 06-09-14, 05:25 PM
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Depending on the code cycle changes the bonding requirements. Some cycles would require the concrete to be bonded.
What about 2014 cycle (MA has adopted 2014)? What are the bonding requirements there?

Here....in NJ.... the last inspector I dealt with requested the #8 green which I run anyway. I treat the spa/tub like a pool when it comes to grounding
This is what I see in 680.25.B.1 (Feeders/Grounding/Size):
This conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG. On separately derived systems, this conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.30(A)(3) but not smaller than 8 AWG.
I'd tend to read this that #10 ground is good for feeding from main panel to subpanel. Am I wrong?

The bonding question is more important to me then size of the grounding wire. I might abort the whole project if I need to redo concrete slab (gets to costly).

I do appreciate everybody help so very much.
 
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Old 06-09-14, 06:03 PM
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Call the boro or city building department and ask for the number of the electrical inspector. Since he is the ultimate authority he can tell you what he prefers..... whether or not it's actually in the current code cycle that your town/city has adopted.
 
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Old 06-10-14, 08:49 AM
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The new wiring between the main panel and disconnect is about 55 ft, of which 30 ft within the building and 25 on the building. The distance disconnect to hot tub is about 6 feet straight line (about 12 feet of wire).

I plan gauge 6 THHN/THWN cable red+white+blue and gauge 10 THHN/THWN white cable as a feeder into the hot tub disconnect CH40SPA (Eaton / Cutler Hammer) for a disconnect.
What type of cable were you planning on using to feed the SPA panel? You mention it only as a white cable. The 25 on the building is something I picked up on, I assume that is in conduit on the outside of the building. Is this UF cable?
 
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Old 06-10-14, 09:30 AM
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I plan gauge 6 THHN/THWN cable red+white+blue and gauge 10 THHN/THWN white cable as a feeder into the hot tub disconnect CH40SPA (Eaton / Cutler Hammer) for a disconnect. Install breaker in the house main panel 60 AMP and have the hot tub connected to 40 AMP GFCI breaker CH240GF within the disconnect.
I think this is what was meant. I had a similar concern when reading.

I plan gauge 6 THHN/THWN conductors red+white+blue and gauge 10 THHN/THWN greenconductor as a feeder into the hot tub disconnect CH40SPA (Eaton / Cutler Hammer) for a disconnect. Install breaker in the house main panel 60 AMP and have the hot tub connected to 40 AMP GFCI breaker CH240GF within the disconnect.
 
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Old 06-10-14, 12:08 PM
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Thank you pcboss.

I did meant to say
"gauge 6 THHN/THWN black+red+white conductorsand gauge 10 THHN/THWN green conductor"
The this THHN/THWN conductors is what I am planning to use throughout.

In some places I said "cable" or nothing at all. My apologies it was not the best use of English on my part. In addition I have mistyped "white" meaning to say "green".

P.S. I initially wanted to use SER 6-3 from main panel to subpanel, but my read of 680.25 is that I can not use SER
 

Last edited by kenzd; 06-10-14 at 12:38 PM.
  #14  
Old 06-10-14, 12:16 PM
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The 25 on the building is something I picked up on, I assume that is in conduit on the outside of the building.
"on the building" means that it will be attached to the wall of under the deck shed. The THHN/THWN conductors will be conduit enclosed both inside the building and outside (have not yet decided which specific kind of conduit).
 
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Old 06-11-14, 09:37 AM
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P.S. I initially wanted to use SER 6-3 from main panel to subpanel, but my read of 680.25 is that I can not use SER
The spa panel is a subpanel. There is no reason I am aware of that the spa subpanel couldn't be fed with SER cable of the appropriate size. Maybe someone with more spa/pool experience can correct me if I am wrong.
 
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Old 06-18-14, 11:11 PM
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The spa panel is a subpanel. There is no reason I am aware of that the spa subpanel couldn't be fed with SER cable of the appropriate size. Maybe someone with more spa/pool experience can correct me if I am wrong.
Thank you. After some additional study of 680, I have arrived to same conclusion. I have to say that it is complex to decode of what they were intending to say.
 
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Old 06-19-14, 12:10 AM
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I think the long and short of it is.... the spa sub panel you are installing IS NOT part of the spa package therefore you can use SER type cable. You can't run SER to the spa itself. Also... the wiring between the spa sub panel and the spa must be copper wire.
 
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Old 06-19-14, 07:41 AM
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I think the long and short of it is.... the spa sub panel you are installing IS NOT part of the spa package therefore you can use SER type cable. You can't run SER to the spa itself. Also... the wiring between the spa sub panel and the spa must be copper wire.
Exactly what I am thinking. Thank you
 
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