New Panel + Whole House Surge Protector
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New Panel + Whole House Surge Protector
Hello everyone. Does everything look proper with this new panel? ( As far as you can tell through a picture) I was also thinking of adding this surge protector to replace the left two 20 amp breakers. Here What do you guys think? Thanks in advance. I have been a long time reader. You guys are amazing, everyone you help with so little in return.
#3
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Assume main panel since 3 wire feed and bonding screw is present.
The two white wires feeding the 240v breakers should be marked/re-identified with with black tape.
That surge breaker is nice. The two independent 20 amp breakers can not be combined though.
The two white wires feeding the 240v breakers should be marked/re-identified with with black tape.
That surge breaker is nice. The two independent 20 amp breakers can not be combined though.
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One thing I never like is that 'clean' wiring. Each wire is cut so short to only go to that breaker. Better is to run each wire longer so that it goes down the side of the box and back up to the breaker. Then each wire is long enough to connect to some other breaker location, can be used in a new (maybe larger) breaker box in the future, and spare wire exists should the end of that wire need be cut off and reconnected.
Missing in that picture is the most important feature of a protector. How does that ground wire connect to the earthing electrode? What is the electrode?
Missing in that picture is the most important feature of a protector. How does that ground wire connect to the earthing electrode? What is the electrode?
#5
Rarely is there a need for extra conductor length to be left in the panel cluttering up the gutter space. If the wire is too short on the rare occasion it needs to be moved a piece can be spliced on.
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What do you mean by that? I can't attach the two single 20 amp breakers, one to each breaker on the surge protector? (The surge protector has two 20 amp breakers)
Also, does it need to be the top breaker? The directions don't say it does, but I have heard that it may?
Also, does it need to be the top breaker? The directions don't say it does, but I have heard that it may?
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To clarify - That surge/breaker combo works fine to feed two 20 AMP 120 volt circuits but can not be used for a 240 volt feed as there is no handle tie available to disconnect both legs simultaneously.
#11
I can't attach the two single 20 amp breakers, one to each breaker on the surge protector? (The surge protector has two 20 amp breakers)
Also, does it need to be the top breaker? The directions don't say it does, but I have heard that it may?
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That's what I thought you meant, but I wanted to be sure. I was planning on using it for two 120 20 amp circuits. Okay, well I'll move the breakers around to get the surge protector to the top of the box.
So as far as I can see I only have one ground, in the new box and it connects to the houses water pipes. Isn't that incorrect for most areas?
So as far as I can see I only have one ground, in the new box and it connects to the houses water pipes. Isn't that incorrect for most areas?
#13
A single ground was common for many years. If a Ufer ground is used you will only have one ground even in a new house..
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Locating those breakers closer to incoming AC mains is about making a connection from each AC wire to earth every foot shorter. Distance of that connection, no splices, and no sharp bends are critically important to making a protector more effective.
Earthing to a water pipe is no longer sufficient. Of all earth grounds, a water pipe ground is the only insufficient electrode for human safety reasons (as defined by code). But is also insufficient for other reasons that determine transistor safety.
At minimum, the electric panel should connect to this other single point earth ground. An 8+ foot ground rod just outside the house (Ufer ground is even better but rarely exists). If other incoming wires (telephone, satellite dish, cable TV) do not also connect, then it is not a single point ground.
How that connection is made is important. If a bare copper quarter inch wire goes up over the foundations, is bundled with other non-grounding wires, has splices, or is inside metallic conduit, then earthing for transistor safety is compromised. Better is a ground wire through the foundation and down to an earthing electrode to eliminate every extra foot in that wire, to eliminate sharp bends over the foundation, and to keep it away from other wires.
Appreciate no protector does protection. Protection is defined by what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. That is earth ground. And that is why most of your attention should focus on the critically most important component in any protection system.
Reason for moving those breakers closer to AC mains is to make a connection to earth just one foot shorter. Because short wire length (not a thicker wire) makes protection better.
Earthing to a water pipe is no longer sufficient. Of all earth grounds, a water pipe ground is the only insufficient electrode for human safety reasons (as defined by code). But is also insufficient for other reasons that determine transistor safety.
At minimum, the electric panel should connect to this other single point earth ground. An 8+ foot ground rod just outside the house (Ufer ground is even better but rarely exists). If other incoming wires (telephone, satellite dish, cable TV) do not also connect, then it is not a single point ground.
How that connection is made is important. If a bare copper quarter inch wire goes up over the foundations, is bundled with other non-grounding wires, has splices, or is inside metallic conduit, then earthing for transistor safety is compromised. Better is a ground wire through the foundation and down to an earthing electrode to eliminate every extra foot in that wire, to eliminate sharp bends over the foundation, and to keep it away from other wires.
Appreciate no protector does protection. Protection is defined by what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. That is earth ground. And that is why most of your attention should focus on the critically most important component in any protection system.
Reason for moving those breakers closer to AC mains is to make a connection to earth just one foot shorter. Because short wire length (not a thicker wire) makes protection better.
#15
So as far as I can see I only have one ground, in the new box and it connects to the houses water pipes. Isn't that incorrect for most areas?
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Awesome, So I effectivley have 0 Grounds. The connection to the water pipe is at least 30 ft from where it enters the house, and there is no ground rod that i can see. No wire connects to the panel for one anyway. So I need to get the electrician back here for that. So The panel that he installed isn't to code? We follow the 2006 edition here.
On a side note, my cable isn't grounded as well. Where it enters the house or after it enters. Randomly the tv wouldn't turn on today. So I checked the others, and the cable box and Blu ray Player are also all completely dead. Could this have anything to do with the cable not being properly grounded?
On a side note, my cable isn't grounded as well. Where it enters the house or after it enters. Randomly the tv wouldn't turn on today. So I checked the others, and the cable box and Blu ray Player are also all completely dead. Could this have anything to do with the cable not being properly grounded?
#17
So I effectivley have 0 Grounds. The connection to the water pipe is at least 30 ft from where it enters the house, and there is no ground rod that i can see.
So I need to get the electrician back here for that. So The panel that he installed isn't to code? We follow the 2006 edition here.
On a side note, my cable isn't grounded as well. Where it enters the house or after it enters. Randomly the tv wouldn't turn on today. So I checked the others, and the cable box and Blu ray Player are also all completely dead. Could this have anything to do with the cable not being properly grounded?
Arlington | Intersystem Grounding Bridges
#18
It was common for the ground connection on the water line to be close to the panel. Your panel may have met code when installed but would not meet the current requirements. When was it installed?
The cable and Blu-ray do not need a ground to operate and only have 2 conductor cords.
The cable and Blu-ray do not need a ground to operate and only have 2 conductor cords.
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> Could this have anything to do with the cable not being properly grounded?
Absoutely. In terms of transistor protection, you have virtually no earth ground. You do not have single point ground which is the only item in a protection 'system' that does the protection - absorbs energy.
All appliances already have robust protection for most anomalies that many call a surge. In reality most anomalies are only noise. A rare events that cause damage typically occurs maybe once every seven years (a number that can vary significantly even in the same town). You have no protection from that typically destructive anomaly.
Water pipe grounds that were once code sufficient are now obsolete. But an electrician would not upgrade it because of grandfathering. It was good enough then. So no code reason to upgrade it. But appliance (transistor) protection is about doing things beyond what code calls for. Some of that previous post discussed what an electrician might balk at because code does not say (for example) that the ground wire must be so short or have no sharp bends. Human safety (the code) says it does not. Transistor safety says it must be that short, no sharp wire bends, etc.
Absoutely. In terms of transistor protection, you have virtually no earth ground. You do not have single point ground which is the only item in a protection 'system' that does the protection - absorbs energy.
All appliances already have robust protection for most anomalies that many call a surge. In reality most anomalies are only noise. A rare events that cause damage typically occurs maybe once every seven years (a number that can vary significantly even in the same town). You have no protection from that typically destructive anomaly.
Water pipe grounds that were once code sufficient are now obsolete. But an electrician would not upgrade it because of grandfathering. It was good enough then. So no code reason to upgrade it. But appliance (transistor) protection is about doing things beyond what code calls for. Some of that previous post discussed what an electrician might balk at because code does not say (for example) that the ground wire must be so short or have no sharp bends. Human safety (the code) says it does not. Transistor safety says it must be that short, no sharp wire bends, etc.
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The whole panel was redone two weeks ago. So wouldn't that mean it's no longer grandfathered? I guess that's what I get for choosing the cheapest of the quotes. It was $575 for the whole panel installed. He was a licensed and bonded electrician. I am not sure if he had it inspected. He had to stay and finish after I had left for work. (He was late because of an emergency)
2005 edition, sorry it was adopted in 2006. Our code book is a very hard read.
As far as the tv and blu ray, they are 100% non functional. I took them apart and the main boards on both are fried as well as the cable board in both ( where the input outputs attach) that's why I think the surge may had come from the cable line. The outlet tests fine.
2005 edition, sorry it was adopted in 2006. Our code book is a very hard read.
As far as the tv and blu ray, they are 100% non functional. I took them apart and the main boards on both are fried as well as the cable board in both ( where the input outputs attach) that's why I think the surge may had come from the cable line. The outlet tests fine.
#21
When the panel was changed the grounding should have been upgraded to the current standard.
Surges can enter through any line like power, cable or regular phone. FIOS will not as it is a fiber optic.
Surges can enter through any line like power, cable or regular phone. FIOS will not as it is a fiber optic.
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> FIOS will not as it is a fiber optic.
In one event, a surge was incoming on AC mains. It used the multifunction fax printer to connect to FIOS telephone lines. Since FIOS was earthed, damage was on a protector in a multifunction printer (the outgoing path), and FIOS telephone interface. Verizon replaced two FIOS boxes. I replaced the protector in a Canon printer. All functions restored - no future failures.
Damage was on the outgoing path fhrough the printer. FIOS equipment remains at risk even if its incoming wire is fiber. As demonstrated here. And for other reasons.
In one event, a surge was incoming on AC mains. It used the multifunction fax printer to connect to FIOS telephone lines. Since FIOS was earthed, damage was on a protector in a multifunction printer (the outgoing path), and FIOS telephone interface. Verizon replaced two FIOS boxes. I replaced the protector in a Canon printer. All functions restored - no future failures.
Damage was on the outgoing path fhrough the printer. FIOS equipment remains at risk even if its incoming wire is fiber. As demonstrated here. And for other reasons.