Any special rules for outdoor or dining room receptacles?


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Old 07-28-14, 09:32 PM
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Any special rules for outdoor or dining room receptacles?

What I wanted to do was add a circuit to my panel that would feed several duplex or quad receptacles along a wall that serves as both a dining room and living room wall. Since it is also an outside wall I wanted it to serve a GFCI outlet in a weatherproof in-use box. Would there be a problem hanging all of this off a single 20A circuit?

Also, is there a general guideline for how far off the floor the outlets should be?
 
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Old 07-28-14, 09:49 PM
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The dining room can't share receptacles with any other room.
 
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Old 07-29-14, 05:31 AM
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run 3 circuits..............living room.....dining room.........take a circuit to the outside outlet by itself..use 12-2 wg NM wire


the code does not care how high outlets or switches are
 
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Old 07-29-14, 05:42 AM
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I was worried about that. Currently my house is so badly wired that the circuit currently in the dining room services the living room and some bedroom receptacles and fixtures. GFCI required for just outside or for the dining room as well?
 
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Old 07-29-14, 06:10 AM
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gfi the outside............

dining room.......gfi if counter top...........arc fault breaker if not

living room........needs arc fault breaker
 
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Old 07-29-14, 10:10 AM
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No counters. Okay, so with that info, here is what I am going to do.

Circuit 1 will feed the dining room. CAFI 20A breaker (QO120CAFI) and 12/2 NM.
Circuit 2 will feed the outside GFI outlet. Standard 20A breaker and 12/2 NM.
Circuit 3 will feed the living room. CAFI 20A breaker and 12/2 NM.
Circuit 4 will feed the adjacent laundry room GFI outlet. Standard 20A breaker and 12/2 NM.

When using plastic boxes, cables should be affixed to a stud within 12 or 18 inches, correct?
 
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Old 07-29-14, 10:31 AM
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Old 07-29-14, 10:37 AM
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If the walls aren't open the cables do not need to be secured.
 
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Old 07-29-14, 10:38 AM
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12". I am also going to recommend using a gfci breaker instead of a gfci outlet. It'll be a little more expensive, but they last longer than a gfci outside.
 
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Old 07-29-14, 10:51 AM
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I am also going to recommend using a gfci breaker instead of a gfci outlet. It'll be a little more expensive, but they last longer than a gfci outside.
The weather resistant GFCI receptacles seem to hold up better outside than the more commonly used non-weather resistant models. Regardless of where the GFCI protection is located, the outside device needs to be weather resistant since the 2008 NEC.
 
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Old 07-29-14, 11:05 AM
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I thought since there are no fasteners on the plastic boxes that the nm had to be stapled near the entrance to the box.

I'll look into prices of the GFCI breakers. If I can get it for under $40 I may go for it. The 50A that feeds my garage was almost $100!
 
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Old 07-29-14, 11:08 AM
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I thought since there are no fasteners on the plastic boxes that the nm had to be stapled near the entrance to the box.
This is true if the walls are open. If you're adding boxes on a closed wall, you get an exemption from this rule.
 
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Old 07-29-14, 11:28 AM
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Ah, good to see parts of the code are pragmatic. Part of the impetus to this work is that we will be re-rocking the S. wall, so I'll have an opportunity to put in new work boxes and nail plates. However that info will help as I'll be running that blue circuit to two other walls and those I won't be opening.

Thanks for the help, that gives me enough confidence to order the permit.
 
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Old 07-29-14, 12:26 PM
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The cable needs to be secured within 8" of new work single gang boxes. On boxes with clamps the cable needs to be secured within 12".
 
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Old 07-29-14, 06:42 PM
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I'll look into prices of the GFCI breakers. If I can get it for under $40 I may go for it. The 50A that feeds my garage was almost $100!


I cannot think of a single reason why a garage would ever be required to be fed with a 50A 2P GFCI breaker. Is there some special use out there we are not aware of?
 
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Old 07-29-14, 10:03 PM
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I was contracting at the time and had occasion to work on computers so I dedicated a 20A circuit to those, a 20A to the lighting (yeah, overkill), a 20A for power tools, an outside dedicated 20A circuit, and a 30A 240V for a prospective air compressor.

GFCI was just so that I could eliminate buying a GFCI breaker for each circuit in the subpanel.
 
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Old 07-30-14, 07:35 AM
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Ok, I see. It would have been acceptable, but not a very good way or cost effective way to provide the GFCI protection where required. Beginning DIYers often make mistakes like that.
 
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Old 07-30-14, 10:21 AM
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That came up in the original thread too. In the end it seemed more efficient than buying two 20A GFCI breakers, a 30A GFCI breaker and an outdoor GFCI outlet. The one significant issue that was raised was that if the GFI was tripped then I'd lose power to the entire garage. This did happen and I founs out that the neutral wire on the 30A circuit had its insulation split when my buddy took the outer jacket off. I didn't notice until enough change in the temperature caused metal to show and it made contact with the panel.
 
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Old 07-30-14, 12:02 PM
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That came up in the original thread too. In the end it seemed more efficient than buying two 20A GFCI breakers, a 30A GFCI breaker and an outdoor GFCI outlet. The one significant issue that was raised was that if the GFI was tripped then I'd lose power to the entire garage. This did happen and I founs out that the neutral wire on the 30A circuit had its insulation split when my buddy took the outer jacket off. I didn't notice until enough change in the temperature caused metal to show and it made contact with the panel.
This will be my last post since this keeps going further off topic. Yes, you learned the hard way that the 50 amp GFCI breaker feeding your garage could leave you in the dark. My point is that the only thing required in your garage to be GFCI protected is the 15 and 20 amp 120 volt receptacles, lights don't need GFCI protection, and that could have been done for $20 to $25 using 15 amp GFCI receptacles, there was no need to spend $100 on the 50 amp GFCI breaker in the house, that was just wasted money, and the air compressor didn't need GFCI protection since it is a 240 volt circuit.
 
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Old 07-30-14, 02:08 PM
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the air compressor didn't need GFCI protection since it is a 240 volt circuit.

TRUE.........the only use of a GFCI IS KEEP SOME HUMAN FROM GETTING KILLED..you play with the compressor all the time …..........or your son..........your wife

within a code or 2................the whole house will be GFCI or arc-fault protected.


Outside GFCI outlet...................NEC requires a WR GFCI outlet now if it is outside..............
GFCI's are electronic and do not respond well to water...........a GFCI breaker will live longer inside a dry panel box...............and when the OUTSIDE outlet rusted out ….......replacement would be cheep.........................folks.........if this is your house.......don't use the 43 cent outlet....its only good if you DO NOT USE IT................USE A SPEC GRADE OUTLET...............COST $3 to $5.....it will LAST 10 to 20 times longer.......and.........the plug(cord cap) will stay in.


GIVE THE WATER A WAY OUT.......................most weather proof boxes keep water IN a lot better than OUT..................so,make a drain hole.........drill 2 1/8 in holes in the bottom of a surface mounted bell box...................



NEC 334.30............NM cable needs to be secured within 12 in of all boxes unless

NEC 334.30 (B) (1) fished........

NEC 334.30 2 OR 3 OTHER SPECIAL LOCATIONS


YOU MAY PLACE THE WASHER AND DRYER OUTLETS ABOVE THE UNITS



THE POINT OF MANY GFCI outlets vs 1 GFCI BREAKER...............one in each bathroom.................garage..............outside rear................outside front............

....IS.LOCAL TRIPPING AND LOCAL CONTROL AND RESET
 
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Old 07-30-14, 05:50 PM
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John, you are going to have to invest in a better keyboard, hoss. It seems to keep popping up all caps, and incomplete sentences. What gives with that? Receptacles are "outlets".. so are light fixture boxes, so the term "receptacle" would be more precise.
 
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Old 07-30-14, 08:02 PM
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chandler, sorry about the caps. ray told me it meant I was yelling. I did not know that. I will not do it. I did not mean to yell at anyone. I apologize to any and everyone I upset by yelling!

Ok, from now we will only install “Receptacle outlet” and “lighting outlet”.

What term should I use for the device we mount on the wall to “control electric energy” and make the”lighting outlet” go on and off.

if i use other wrong terms please point them out as i am fairly new at electric work. i will take all the help i can get. thanks again!
 
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Old 07-30-14, 08:10 PM
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Just receptacle, light, and switch is fine.

Are you typing this on a smart phone? I have a 7" tablet that I avoid typing on like the plague so I can understand if you are trying to use an on screen keyboard. All caps meaning shouting goes back to the days when Usenet was king and there were almost no forums on the Internet. That rule carried over to Internet when forums became king on the web.
 
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Old 07-30-14, 08:24 PM
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yes sir. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 25 characters.
 
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Old 07-30-14, 08:36 PM
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if i use other wrong terms please point them out as i am fairly new at electric work. i will take all the help i can get. thanks again!
How can you be a "master electrician" if you are fairly new to electrical work?

Also, it would help if you used standard Americanized English in your writing. That means starting a sentence with a capital letter and also capitalizing the I when referring to yourself.
 
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Old 07-30-14, 10:15 PM
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furd, thanks for all the pointers. Some old-timers are not as helpful.

if i use other wrong terms please point them out as i am fairly new at electric work.

I would think many “master electricians” have less “hands on” than such as yourself.

One day maybe I will be in a class such as you. Thanks again

as for caps,chandler and ray say “no caps”. All that up and down is just 2 much. We will just stay down here in lower case. Same letters. No yelling! Chandler, ray; I just saw that o,i,t,a,w,s,n,and c. I did not do caps. The machine did the caps. and now a t. I told furd earlyer about the witch.
 
 

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