remodel boxes for shallow cavity, thick wall


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Old 08-01-14, 03:05 PM
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remodel boxes for shallow cavity, thick wall

I'm adding 3 receptacles to a dining room that currently has none. Here's why: it's a very old brick house and I only have about 1.5" between the outer face of the wall and the brick exterior wall. The actual wall is plaster and lath, so likely around 3/4" to 1" thick although I can't tell for sure.

The sidecar remodel boxes that have only a single gang opening but curve around behind the wall for 17 cu space seem perfect for this application generally, but I believe the wall is too thick for the part that curves around behind. I can't tell from the photo how deep into the box it goes before the curve cuts across. I believe it's not enough depth.

Are there any other options? The 8 cu single gang shallow box would only work for the receptacle at the end of the run, but not the two others because of box fill limits.
 
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Old 08-01-14, 03:19 PM
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Yeah, I don't think that will work. You have an overall 2" depth...here's the design PDF. http://www-public.tnb.com/ps/fulltil...sd-ac04829.tif
 
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Old 08-01-14, 07:26 PM
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Are there any other options? The 8 cu single gang shallow box would only work for the receptacle at the end of the run, but not the two others because of box fill limits.
If you have an unfinished basement, as is common with older homes, you could use the 8 cu inch single box at each location and install junction boxes below in the basement to feed each box.
 
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Old 08-01-14, 08:38 PM
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A RACO # 211 is a 4" square box metal box, 1-1/2" deep with NMSC cable clamps, the volume is 21 cu. in. A RACO # 787 is a 4" square flat metal mudring for one device. You could anchor the box with plastic concrete anchors placed in the brick and screws going thru the holes at the back of the box. If you try this, before you anchor the box, make a mark at the ground screw hole in the box and drill a hole into the brick so the ground screw will bottom out in the back of the box. Otherwise the ground screw will hit the brick and you won't be able to tighten it up. You'll never guess how I know that.
 
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Old 08-01-14, 08:48 PM
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A RACO # 211 is a 4" square box metal box, 1-1/2" deep with NMSC cable clamps, the volume is 21 cu. in. A RACO # 787 is a 4" square flat metal mudring for one device. You could anchor the box with plastic concrete anchors placed in the brick and screws going thru the holes at the back of the box.
That would give the OP a 4 inch square hole in the plaster for a single device. Not a good idea.
 
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Old 08-01-14, 09:52 PM
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Well, Leviton makes an oversize wall plate which measures 3-1/2" across by 5-1/4" tall. #84103-40It's a stainless finish, I imagine they would have white as well.Some spackle and paint will hide the flat mounting ring at the sides. What you think? I like the J-Box idea if he has access. I'm wondering how he will run the cables.
 
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Old 08-02-14, 01:34 PM
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Yes, I have basement access, so that could work to use j-boxes down below and run only a single cable up to the opening, which would allow me to use the 8 cu single gang shallow boxes. How are these secured in the hole? I have only worked with the type that have the ears that flip out. Do I just put in some long screws that will reach back into the wooden lath behind the tabs?
 
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Old 08-02-14, 01:38 PM
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Raco makes a shallow wall gem box. The Raco 410 is 1-1/2" deep. It comes with NM type clamps. I've used these before on shallow walls. You may to use a carbide bit to drill for the clamp screw. You can only bring in one cable.


daddyjohn..... if I did something like that in a customers home I'd be shot.
 
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Old 08-02-14, 08:16 PM
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Thanks for all of the ideas so far!

What was I thinking? The 8 cu shallow plastic box won't work and neither will the Raco 410. I did the box fill calculation wrong and I need 11.25 cu just for one 12-2 cable and a receptacle. Any other ideas?
 
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Old 08-02-14, 10:06 PM
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Wiremold? Older homes often have tall baseboard. maybe you could use wiremold surface mount boxes and raceway on near to the top of the baseboard?
 
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Old 08-02-14, 10:46 PM
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12-2 2.25x2 = 4.5
1 ground = 2.25
receptacle = 2
clamp = 1
Total = 9.75 cu

Use a plastic snap in connector and save 1cu on a cable clamp.
 
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Old 08-03-14, 06:31 AM
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why would you not cut out some of the brick and use a deeper box?
 
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Old 08-03-14, 10:53 AM
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johnsc, it's an idea, but it would be a lot of brick that has to be cut out. I'm currently only working with 1.5" of depth.

PJmax, yes, I was wrong again with the calculation! :| I could use a plastic snap-in clamp, but then I'm still at 8.75 cu. The Carlon shallow box is 8 cu and the Raco 410 is 7.5. Is it okay to go over by .75? My guess is no, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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Old 08-03-14, 12:07 PM
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Technically it would be a violation.
 
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Old 08-03-14, 12:52 PM
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Technically it would be a violation.
The key word here being Technically!

Another solution that Technically would be a violation would be to make them 15 amp receptacles and then you could use 14 gauge wire which would make the box fill work!
 
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Old 08-03-14, 01:38 PM
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if you do not want to feed one cable to a 8 cu. in, shallow box with one device.............you can use a 2 gang shallow box and only put one device in it.
 
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Old 08-03-14, 02:01 PM
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TECHNICALLY..............the blue box is 1 1/4 in. deep...................if you put it into a 1 1/2 in. hole..............this gives you the extra .75 cu. in. on fill space. the box may be recessed 1/4 in. if it is in a plaster wall. NEC 314.20


read the electric code for yourself .ASK THE BUILDING DEPT. WHICH CODE TO USE....

the great state of Florida is still using the 2008 NEC.
GOOGLE NEC pdf 2014

GOOGLE FOR 2014 CODE https://archive.org/details/nfpa.nec.2014

GOOGLE FOR 2011 CODE https://archive.org/stream/gov.law.n...ge/n0/mode/2up

GOOGLE FOR 2008 CODE https://archive.org/stream/gov.al.el...ge/n7/mode/2up
 
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Old 08-03-14, 02:07 PM
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Old 08-03-14, 02:42 PM
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We have a winner! Raco 650 Steel Handy Box, 4" x 2" x 1-1/2" deep, 11.5 cu. in. Don't know how I missed it before.
 
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Old 08-03-14, 03:08 PM
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proud of you daddyjohn you did good!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Old 08-03-14, 03:18 PM
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A utility box will work. The OP will have to cut the wall open to get the wire in but then can re-patch it.
 
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Old 08-03-14, 04:09 PM
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use a box with a 1/2 in. KO in the end..........cut the hole 1/8 in. or so high............slide the box onto the wire up to the wall..............use an inside the box pop in connector on the wire....most plastic pop in NM connectors pop in from the outside............some are made to pop in from the inside of the box....this type works great in panel boxes...............they make up to 1in i know,maybe 2in.
 
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Old 08-03-14, 05:15 PM
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Okay, let me recap:
- The 8 cu single gang will not work because it is a violation of .75 cu.
- Could do a 2-gang shallow box and only put on one device. Are there face plates that are blank on one side and have a device on the other?
- Could use the Raco 650 or a utility box (what is a utility box exactly?). I'm not sure why either of those involves cutting the wall open or needing special inside-the-box connectors, though. I can fish up wire from the basement. Would an electrical supply store carry the Raco 650 or will I have to order it? How do you secure it to plaster and lath?
 
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Old 08-03-14, 05:26 PM
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A utility box can't be "rocked" into the hole as the hole needs to be the same size as the box so that the plate will cover. So you need to allow a little extra room at one end, a notch, to get the wire into the box. Then you spackle the notch hole over. Yes.... you can use goof or oversize plates to cover if you want.

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You would have to fasten it with madison bars.... or box support brackets.
 
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Old 08-03-14, 06:03 PM
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use the raco 650 "handy box" 11.5 cu.in. use an oversize cover. secure the box to the brick
 
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Old 08-03-14, 06:22 PM
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The actual wall is plaster and lath
if you cut very much(any) wood lath you need a

Oscillating Multifunction Power Tool w/ Variable Speed

aka vibrating saw with this you can cut a hole in wood lath and not have a lot of plaster fall off of the wall.

i have the bosch 12 volt

Home
Tools & Hardware
Power Tools
Power Multi Tools
Oscillating Tools
Cordless Oscillating Tools

Bosch
Model # PS50B
Internet # 202603606
12-Volt Lithium-Ion Multi Saw Bare Tool (Tool Only)
4.3 out
 
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Old 08-03-14, 06:27 PM
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Are there face plates that are blank on one side and have a device on the other?
yes




The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 25 characters.
 
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Old 08-04-14, 06:28 PM
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Thanks so much for all of the help, everyone! I really appreciate it!
 
 

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