Wiring a dishwasher

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  #41  
Old 11-14-14, 06:08 PM
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Well I had an electrician come out. Found a neutral tied in with a hot in the kitchen light/fan box. Seperated that and all the other wires. Continuity tested and individually tested all the outlets and wires one at a time. Determined everything was as it should be. So he wired the outlet in question up directly to the feed line, everything was as it should be. So he wired it all back up how it should be, light fixture and everything else works, plugged the dishwasher in and got a nice arc from the outlet plate screw to the ground prong on the plug. The box is still hot... Same problem
 
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  #42  
Old 11-14-14, 07:28 PM
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So he wired it all back up how it should be, light fixture and everything else works, plugged the dishwasher in and got a nice arc from the outlet plate screw to the ground prong on the plug. The box is still hot... Same problem
So......what was the final prognosis, what did he do to solve the problem?
 
  #43  
Old 11-14-14, 07:50 PM
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He repaired the problem receptacle which was NOT your dishwasher problem. You still need to check for a short between the black dishwasher hot line and the dishwasher metal frame.

The electrician could have made this test for you.
 
  #44  
Old 11-14-14, 07:54 PM
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Did you pay him for not fixing the problem?
 
  #45  
Old 11-14-14, 10:54 PM
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The final prognosis and his recommendation was to just run 2 new circuits to the attic and re-wire the kitchen and eliminate any issue this old wire could be creating. Hes a friend and was working for free. Every outlet on this circuit says rev polarity or faulty ground when plugging in the circuit tester. After he left I tried to trace back every outlet on this circuit. The circuit feeds the kitchen, bathroom, one bedroom, and 1 wall on another bedroom. so I went around checking outlets with the voltmeter and found one outlet had been wired backwards (neutral and hot were on wrong sides of the recep itself) I fixed that but the problem still exists, so Im going to check the remaining outlets tomorrow. Otherwise the electrician is probably going to come back sunday.

I was planning on running 2 new circuits anyway just because I knew the kitchen shared a breaker with a bedroom. And we were adding the dishwasher, disposal, and microwave which werent there before
 
  #46  
Old 11-15-14, 12:10 AM
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Rewire sounds like the best solution. Go for it.
 
  #47  
Old 11-15-14, 12:37 PM
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Another interesting find. I pulled a light switch out, it has 2 14-2 romex cables coming into the box. Grounds are tied together and so are neutrals, hots are on the switch. I disconnected the switch and seperated all connections. If I put a meter lead on each neutral I get 120v. I also get 120v if I go across the 2 that were on the switch
 
  #48  
Old 11-15-14, 02:43 PM
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One thing I'm trying to understand. Could just one outlet on this circuit have the wiring reversed and be causing this effect to continue throughout the entire circuit? or is it more likely a neutral touching a hot somewhere at the begining and carrying on to every outlet after that?

Adding up everything on the circuit, theres 4 or 5 light fixtures, 12 or so outlets and 5 switches. Im fine with splitting these up into multiple circuits but I really dont want to tear all my walls apart rewiring all of these. We just bought the house and have already spent a ton of money renovating the kitchen/bathroom and painting/flooring the whole house
 
  #49  
Old 11-15-14, 02:59 PM
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You don't tear walls apart to rewire. In fact it can usually be done with little or no patching. Old cables are abandoned in place and new cables fished.

If you are really determined to fix this your self one approach would be to disconnect every cable in the boxes powered by the breaker. When you do that there should be only one breaker with a cable that shows 120 volts. Verify that that cable is correct hot to neutral, neutral to ground, hot to ground. If it is and assuming two cables in that box wire nut the two cables together. Find the next box that has a hot cable and repeat the test procedure. As you do each box leave the preceding box connected together. Name:  Triangle.gif
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Size:  1.1 KBWarning some cables you encounter may be switch loops so do not connect if there is a possibility of it being a switch loop cable till you have tested using the multimeter set to ohms and the breaker turned OFF during the test. If a switch loop leave disconnected for now.
 
  #50  
Old 11-15-14, 04:23 PM
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I disconnected the switch and seperated all connections. If I put a meter lead on each neutral I get 120v
If you disconnected the switch and all other connections, you should get 0 volts across the two neutral unless possibly if the neutral in the ceiling box is touching a ground wire.

I also get 120v if I go across the 2 that were on the switch
This would be normal IF the neutrals were still spliced together, but you said all connections were taken apart. IF the neutral in the ceiling box is touching a ground wire, you would get 120 volts across the 2 black wires.
 
  #51  
Old 11-16-14, 08:46 PM
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Well I narrowed it down today. I decided to check a junction box. The cable comes into the attic and feeds a junction box. that box feeds the light in the room i previously mentioned, a light in another bedroom, and another junction box. I was just following wires getting an idea of everything that was on this circuit from the attic when i bumped a piece of MC (the feed line) and cause armor to touch the steel juction box, it caused a nice spark and I heard some crackling down the line above the kitchen/bathroom too. I pulled the armor back right away (I was wearing gloves) and immediately ran downstairs and shut the breaker off. from that point on, all the metal armor is secured to the junction boxes like it should be. So theres the reason why the problem didnt go all the way back to the panel

So I disconnected everything from that point on in the circuit in the attic. And continuity tested every hot wire to the metal armor and of course the very last and hardest connection to get to is the one that has continuity between hot and the metal armor. And its the lead running to the exhaust fan in the bathroom. I havent actually dug under the 3 layers of insulation in that dark corner of the attic yet to find out what the exact problem is. But I will tomorrow. I came down to eat dinner and when I went back up i turned on a light at almost got hit by a bat flying around. So I turned around and went right back inside and decided to wait til tomorrow. I did run 2 lengths of 12-3 from the panel in the basement to the attic. So Ill be able to ad 4 new circuits.


And yes, I realize this very quickly could have started a fire. It was immediately after that I started running the new wire. The sound of electrical crackling under insulation somewhere is a pretty scary sound. When that happened I wasnt actually working on anything I was just following wires around and trying to determine where they went in the walls
 
  #52  
Old 11-17-14, 06:05 AM
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So glad you found the source of the problem.
 
  #53  
Old 11-17-14, 07:01 AM
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Now you also know why I prefer to not have any junction boxes in an attic although having them is not a code violation.
 
  #54  
Old 11-17-14, 07:49 PM
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Turns out It was actually a light fixture. The lead I thought was going to the fan in the bathroom actually just looped around the fan box and went all the way across the attic. Under 3 layers of insulation too so it was less than easy to follow. Pulled the fixture down from inside and immediately saw the problem. The hots had a good 3 inches of insulation stripped off of them and were just wire nutted and taped up not even the whole way to the insulation so they were resting right on the brace that holds the light, and would normally grounded. Amazing if the MC armor was connected at that junction box across the attic this house probably wouldve started on fire a long time ago when this light was installed and they turned the breaker on.

First pic is of bathroom light fixture with exposed wiring

Second is of the fixture causing this whole issue
 
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