220v Window A/C outlet change to outlet for 220v welder

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  #1  
Old 12-10-14, 01:53 PM
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220v Window A/C outlet change to outlet for 220v welder

Can't find a clear answer on this searching but I am buying a new welder for the garage that is a 220v unit. I have an AC window unit in the garage already that is running 220v off a 30A breaker but the outlet is different than that of the welder. The AC outlet has a ground hole at the bottom, sideways T (-I) to the left and a horizontal line on the right. I do not need the AC unit and it hasn't been hooked up for a long time so is it just an outlet change to get the correct outlet or do I need to run all new line for 220v outlet meant for a welder? I've seen adapters for the welding plug but not sure if its what I need as the 220v welding plug looks like the dryer plug.

Welder is a Thermal Arc 181i for reference.

Thank you,
 
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  #2  
Old 12-10-14, 02:38 PM
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Please post the NEMA designation of the plug on the unit and also the current receptacle. Also the rating of the breaker that feeds the circuit.

BTW, it is 240 volts, not 220.
 
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Old 12-10-14, 02:40 PM
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And the wire size feeding the receptacle.
 
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Old 12-10-14, 04:17 PM
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The outlet you described is a 20A two-pole type... a "dryer type plug" is going to be three-pole design, probably anywhere from 30A to 50A. It will need heavier wire, a separate neutral, and probably a higher-current breaker.
 
  #5  
Old 12-10-14, 04:38 PM
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I tried to look at the breaker but its very hard to see the tiny writing, i saw 2 pole 240v and it is a 30a breaker.

Looking at my panel more and it looks like a mess, i might have to have someone come clean it up anyhow.

As for the rating on the welder not sure as i didnt buy it yet and not sure on the gauge wire. It is a multi processor welder and from what i read doesnt draw like capacitor set ups so it keeps the amps lower.
 
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Old 12-10-14, 04:49 PM
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Which of the plugs does it look like in the diagram I posted (the welder plug, not the outlet)?
 
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Old 12-10-14, 06:42 PM
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a "dryer type plug" is going to be three-pole
Modern dryer plugs are 4-wire and have a ground. The three wire you mention unless in continuous metal conduit or 2-conductor SE has no ground and can't be used for the 2-wire plus ground feed needed for 240 volts. The three wire NM has a white combined neutral ground but the white by NEC can't be remarked as a ground if #6 or smaller.

What I suspect Fox has is an over fused 20 amp 240 volt A/C receptacle.

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Image source: Frentz and Sons Hardware

Plug on left and receptacle on the right.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 12-10-14 at 06:59 PM.
  #8  
Old 12-10-14, 08:04 PM
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The a/c plug looks like 6-20 20amp however after moving some wires around that outlet for the a/c is actualy piggybacked off the dryer breaker. Gotta rewrite it looks like
 
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Old 12-10-14, 08:31 PM
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that outlet for the a/c is actually piggybacked off the dryer breaker.
Just for the record that was never code for multiple reasons.
 
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Old 12-10-14, 08:33 PM
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Modern dryer plugs are 4-wire and have a ground.
Right. Four wire, three pole, as shown in the diagram I posted (obviously not counting the ground pin).

Fox already confirmed that the A/C outlet is style 6-20 shown in that diagram.
 
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Old 12-11-14, 01:01 AM
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Both the receptacle for the dryer and A/C should be dedicated. Since the A//C is 20 amps its wiring will not be protected by the 30 amp breaker.
 
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Old 12-11-14, 06:36 AM
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I have never used the window A/C since moving into my house but obviously is it needed to be separated from the dryer wiring. I will have to figure out what my best course of action is for this as it looks like my box is fully filled up. Will update as I get going on this and I do appreciate the info so far.

I am going to see if I can free up some space within the box, I have way to many breakers that control outlets and switches on the one side of the panel. Not sure if the previous owner had more things running in each room or what but it seems almost as if each room has a 15A or 20A breaker on its own. I believe I can free up some space by combining most of these together on one breaker as I barely use half of the outlets and this should allow me to run a dedicated line for the welder on its own.
 

Last edited by fox_forma; 12-11-14 at 07:13 AM.
  #13  
Old 12-11-14, 07:45 AM
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Just for consideration: Do you have room for a subpanel next to the main panel?
 
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Old 12-11-14, 08:56 AM
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I could prob put a subpanel in but I do believe there are a ton of breakers being used that really don't need to be. The previous owners ran a day care out of the house and also had the third car garage enclosed so I believe they set the panel up to reflect each area. There's 6 breakers just for the kitchen outlets/switches, about 4 more for upstairs outlets alone. I don't think I need a sub panel at this time but its always an option.

I'll try to snap a pic of how the panel looks when I get home for reference if that helps.
 
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Old 12-11-14, 09:34 AM
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There's 6 breakers just for the kitchen outlets/switches
1. Disposer
2. Dishwasher
3. Fridge (Unsure if required)
4. Over the range microwave? If present.
5 and 6. Two counter small appliance circuits.
7. Lighting.

You can see with modern codes, you can fill up a panel quick.

Some homes may even have more appliances that require dedicated 20 amp circuits, warming drawers, gas convection ovens with electric heating in fan unit.
 
  #16  
Old 12-13-14, 02:02 PM
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That makes sense with the kitchen outlets as I didn't think each thing needed its own dedicated breaker. I attached a pic of the panel and it looks like there are two slots left at the bottom. Should I move a single pole from another spot so I can open up a spot for a double and run my dedicated 240v?

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  #17  
Old 12-15-14, 07:14 AM
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would this idea work above?
 
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Old 12-15-14, 07:59 AM
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two slots left at the bottom
Do you no longer have a pool? The panel is a small panel and full. You really need to add a subpanel. I see nothing non essential in the panel unless you no longer have the pool. Maybe room for tandems if your panel takes them. Make and model number please.
 
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Old 12-15-14, 08:30 AM
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still have a pool, I guess a sub might be the best option but I was hoping to avoid that. I saw two slots not being used so thought it would be possible to move a breaker over to one of them and free up two slots together and drop a 2 pole in there for the welder.
 
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Old 12-15-14, 08:48 AM
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Oops didn't see those. Eyes are getting old. You will have to pull the face to see if there are stab points behind the knock outs. Covers are made for more then one model of panel so sometimes there are more knock outs then stab points.
 
  #21  
Old 12-15-14, 10:49 AM
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I will check to see if they are just dummy slots. Would i be able to move the pool light over and then move the other 2 pole up one slot to fit the one need for the welder if they do in fact have stab points?
 
  #22  
Old 12-15-14, 11:20 AM
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Yes.

.
 
  #23  
Old 12-15-14, 11:38 AM
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A multi wire branch circuit cannot be moved without making sure both hots are on opposite legs in the panel.
 
  #24  
Old 12-15-14, 12:18 PM
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Aren't the breakers on opposite legs when stacked up and down where as across from each other they are on the same leg?
 
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Old 12-15-14, 12:36 PM
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The breakers need to be stacked vertically if they are a MWBC.
 
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Old 12-15-14, 12:45 PM
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ok thanks, that was the intention I had for the new breaker.
 
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Old 12-15-14, 01:33 PM
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I believe what PCBoss was saying was if the 120 volt breaker you want to move is part of a multiwire branch circuit you must keep it paired with the breaker that is the other half of the MWBC. In that case it would be the breaker above it. If you have a red wire on one breaker and a black on the breaker immediately above or below it is likely a MWBC.
 
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Old 12-15-14, 01:52 PM
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Ok that makes sense, I do not believe the breaker I want to move shares with another. I'm thinking I should move the pool light breaker over to the opposite side at the bottom and move the 2 pole up one notch and drop the new breaker in the lower two left slots. I'll pull the panel cover off and see what is going on. Thanks
 
  #29  
Old 12-15-14, 05:05 PM
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pulled the panel and here is what is inside. Pool light is ran with its own neutral as well as the pool pump. Do I in fact have two open slots at the bottom?Name:  Panel Wiring.jpg
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Old 12-15-14, 05:15 PM
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Odd it almost looks like a white wire to the pool light breaker. Am I looking wrong?
 
  #31  
Old 12-15-14, 05:39 PM
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i believe that is white, it is pretty dirty but it looks to go to the middle of the bus bar up top. Looks like ground is also mixed into that area as well as the green line going into the conduit is also for the pump.
 
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Old 12-15-14, 06:17 PM
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Can you zoom a little closer to the bottom of the panel and point upward slightly?.I want to see the bottom of the bus.
 
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Old 12-15-14, 06:54 PM
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I can grab a shot tomorrow during the day, anything specific you are looking for or any other pics needed?
 
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Old 12-15-14, 07:56 PM
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He's looking for a better shot of the bus bars to see if there is indeed available space for breakers at bottom.

The angle of your picture makes it hard to see the height of exposed bar.

Just aim camera a little lower and try to capture the bottom of the lowest breaker, and at the same time, trying to get bus bars as straight on as possible.
 
  #35  
Old 12-16-14, 09:02 AM
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He's looking for a better shot of the bus bars to see if there is indeed available space for breakers at bottom.
Yes, there is space for breakers at the bottom. This is a 24 circuit QO series Square D panel and currently only 22 spaces are being used. Square D never made a 22 space panel.
 
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Old 12-16-14, 09:25 AM
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Joe, does it take tandems, just curious?
 
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Old 12-16-14, 09:42 AM
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Joe, does it take tandems, just curious?
I don't think so, but checking the label inside the panel box is the only way to know for sure. It appears to be a CTL panel and not a pre-1968 panel. If it is in fact a 125 amp panel, 24 spaces is the largest panel that was available till recently and this isn't a recently manufactured panel.
 
  #38  
Old 12-16-14, 12:13 PM
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I can't read the label to well due to its age and being outside in the AZ heat/weather. It is a 200amp service coming into the panel and the house was built in 85' if that helps.
 
  #39  
Old 12-16-14, 01:03 PM
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Regarding the breaker you want to move and the wire to it you wrote:
believe that is white, it is pretty dirty but it looks to go to the middle of the bus bar up top
Is it spliced to black on the middle right?
 
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Old 12-16-14, 06:53 PM
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It is a 200amp service coming into the panel and the house was built in 85' if that helps.
That blows my theory of a 125 amp panel, but it is still a CTL 24 space panel. It would take either a closer look at the panel label or inspection of the panel interior to determine if it will accept legal tandem breakers.
 
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