Joe,

Okay, SEU from weather head down, then SER coming out the bottom of the meter socket. I'll just ground the neutral and ground to the 200A service panel once it comes in, then take it back out to a ground block before leaving the house. To be clear, in this case I would still do nothing to ground the meter socket from the outside.

I will use the 4/0-4/0-4/0-2/0 Alum for this purpose as you previously linked.

Regarding the 3 conductor coming down into the meter socket, I had a question about whether to use 4/0-4/0-2/0 Alum or 4/0-4/0-4/0 Alum. It seems that the 2/0 would only be for ground, so I'm guessing I should use 4/0-4/0-4/0 Alum for the run between weather head and top of meter socket, RIGHT?

Thanks for the Gampak NM/SE link. You may have seen I came up with another option. Which do you like better?

Shop Gampak NM/SE Connector at Lowes.com

or

Halex 3#3/0-4/0 Service Entrance (SE) Cap-77803 - The Home Depot

I can go to both stores as needed.

RE: Service Panel

I get your point. Don't misunderstand my tone. I'm not an anti-regulation kook. Quite the opposite. Also, I'm not calling you out on this. I really am one of the good guys trying to do the right thing here and I do respect code. This crazy long thread should be a testament to that and my desire to do things right down to the tiny details. However, I'm in a pretty crappy situation right here. I have to feed my kids from the stove cause the mircrowave's shot, I can't use my washer & dryer, and there's six days until santa and this whole situation has put me way behind.

Here's how I'm going to play it.

If the inspector insists I change it, I'll do it, not that I'd have a choice anyway. I'm not going to go out of my way to point it out to him, nor will I try to hide it. I've have had the conversation you suggest with at least 3 electricians over the last few years who have been in my home.

If I need to change it, I will basically beg the inspector to let me turn the power on and give me some sort of a time frame (week?... 3 days?) to take some photos, chart some of the runs, figure out what I'll have to junction, and then ultimately flip the panel around and do what's required. If he doesn't give me the time, I guess I'll need to get some kind of battery light source and work through the night while running my wood stove. Maybe I can just hook up a few of the critical circuits enough to get him to turn my power back on, then, using my new main breaker, I'll be able to take care of the rest after I get some laundry done. lol. Either way, I'll work it out and I really do appreciate the perspective you're coming from.

Edit: cable joe linked earlier
4/0-4/0-4/0-2/0 Aluminum SER Wire
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire...7899/205001904

 

Getting back to one of Joe's earlier comments....

At this point I've decided to upgrade to 200A and use 4/0-4/0-4/0 SEU from meter socket to weather head. Because I'm under the gun, I think it best I secure the SEU to the rake rail the way it is now.

I'm trying to think of how the rain will come off the roof. Maybe it would be better to try to bring the weather head off the rake a few inches using some kind of mount or should I just leave well enough alone essentially re-creating the layout as it is now? No code problems here so long as I keep the same height?

 

Few last details before I go shopping...

Is best practice to smear this on all connections in and out of socket meter and those on service panel? (Anti-Oxidant Compound)
Shop Gardner Bender 4-oz Ox-Gard Anti-Oxidant Compound at Lowes.com

Might sound over the top, but I'm up for buying a torque wrench. Can anyone tell me what I should be tightening to for the meter socket and service panel connections?

I don't drill a lot of holes in my house big enough to pass SER through. What's the best way to seal? Mortar? Duct Seal Putty? Something new on the block?

 

A coating of anti-ox is used on any aluminum wire.

The torque specs for the pans are posted on a label inside the unit.

Many ways to seal. Spray foam inside the hole and covered with duct seal. 100% duct seal. Spray foam and cement.

When I go thru masonry, especially block, I'll use spray foam to fill the cavity in. I'll let it dry and then remove/scrap an inch or so out of the hole and fill with cement.

 

The 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 SE is fine. The neutral can be reduced since it will not need to carry the full load.

I like!e the plastic weatherhead. Those cast weather heads are too easy to crack.

Duct seal is easy to apply around the cable to seal the hole.

 

Right now I'm thinking I could do this job myself for under $400 and that includes buying a cheap torque wrench and paying the private inspector his $60 fee. I'd all but given up on the other two electricians I called last Monday, but one just got back to me and will be stopping by tomorrow after 1pm. I was going to go shopping tomorrow morning, but now I'll give it another day.

PJMax,

Thanks for the info. Brick house. I like the foam/cement idea. By cement you mean concrete instead of mortar?

pcboss,

Thanks for the plastic tip. To be clear, you're saying I can go 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 for the SEU (above the meter) and 4/0, 4/0,4/0,2/0 for the SER (below the meter). The price between the two is inconsequential to me. It might be nice to have even slightly thinner cable. However, will a thinner cable make my meter socket connections looser and provide less of a seal? Also, wouldn't a thicker neutral give me some poor man's insurance towards the next "loose neutral" 30+ years down the line?

Finally, any last minute suggestions for sealing things up? For example, I could chalk behind the lag screws when I mount the meter socket.

 

Cement... mortar.... your choice.

You don't have to go back on the rakeboard. You can mount where I showed the pipe going. You can also keep the service head under the rake. You do need to leave enough for a comfortable drip loop to the service. If the overhang is one foot.... leave at least four to five feet of wire out of head. They'll trim off the extra.

It will take a little longer to install as you'll need to drill the masonry as opposed to just using wood screws.

 

A 3R socket should already have shoulders over any mounting holes, but you can also caulk an upsidedown U around them.

The SER only needs to run between the first means of disconnect and any downstream panels. Are you using a meter main or a meter follwed by a separate disconnect into a panel inside?

Weather connectors for SE have sealing gland that compresses against the sheath.

 

I want to talk about how the grounding will work when this is all said and done.

I will have an outside 200A service breaker built into the service meter. Inside the meter socket, the neutral coming down from the weather head will attach using a connection built into the meter socket. At this point the neutral divides into both a neutral and ground conductor (for which there will be two outgoing connectors built into the meter socket). These conductors, along with the hots, will come into the house directly by way of the SER.

My service panel can receive two 4/0 hots and 4/0 neutral, but currently there's no connection for another 2/0 incoming ground from the meter socket.

So, how to handle this? I'm guessing I get a ground block. Into this ground block comes the 2/0 conductor from my SER. Into this ground block comes the ground conductor from the point at which my water supply pipe enters my house. Into this ground block comes the grounds from my phone and cable tv. Also, into this ground block comes the neutral from my 200A GE service panel (which I guess would be considered a subpanel). Then, this ground block will head outside to my two 8' long 5/8" thick copper ground rods.

Is this correct?

 

pcboss,

I don't know what 3R socket is but I know I need a hub and a SE connector which I hope to understand better when I actually see them and purchase them with the meter socket. Is it fair to say I can just chalk around the hub and SE connector?

When it's all done, I expect to have an outside 200A breaker in my new meter socket. Out from that will be the 4 conductor SER that goes inside to my 200A Service Panel (subpanel) with nothing in between. (That's not how it is now.)

Okay, so 4/0,4/0,2/0 (SEU) coming down from weather head into meter socket with built in 200A breaker, and 4/0,4/0,4/0,2/0 (SER) coming out of meter socket and into the house... confusion over how to treat that 4th 2/0 ground is the reason for my last post.

 

One power company near me does not allow connections to the top of the socket. I think it is a poor idea as it will eventually leak and allow water into the socket. I would use the side or bottom knockouts.

I am surprised the meter main does not have a lug for the grounds. There are lug adapters made for neutral bars to connect larger conductors.

 

PJMax,

ok. thanks!

I remember the image you posted showing where the pipe would go. It's been a long thread, so let me catch you up. I agree conduit would be better to use and also that it would be better to go under the rake. However, for reasons I've explained elsewhere, I've decided to skip the conduit. Likewise, I will be mounting again to the wood rake, not below it. I don't have a hammer drill. I'll be up on a ladder by myself in who knows what kind of weather, and I'll be trying to get this done in a relatively small window of time.

Right now the insulator (part that attaches to my house for the drop line) is actually above the weather head. I was going to pretty much keep things in the same place just because it was good enough this way in the first place and I don't want to risk a new problem with the Power Co and the drop line. It was mentioned elsewhere that I should just leave 12-18 inches, but looking at the way things are now, I think you're right that I should leave some more to make sure I have enough for a drip loop. Good call! I'll buy more length that I originally expected to.

So I guess I'll have to spend some time unraveling that neutral conductor that is actually a part of the casing of the SEU cable? I hope that's easier than it looks especially if I'm unwinding it out to 4-5 feet.

Anyway, the insulator and weather head will remain in essentially the same place they are now. Can you live with that?

 

Guys, I'm exhausted. I've been here checking in and typing for days. I really appreciate all the help and insights and concerns many of which I wouldn't have thought of. If someone could just give me a direct reply and explanation my grounding question that would about finish me off so I can go shopping.

pcboss,

My Power co leaves it to me to make the socket connections. I think I will go out the top using the proper adapters as others have suggested here, but I do get your point.

I think the adapter I'll be using is called a "hub" maybe something like this:
GE 2 in. Rain-tight Hub-TC200P - The Home Depot

and the connector that screws into it might be something like this:
Halex 2 in. Service Entrance (SE) Water-Tight Connector-10520 - The Home Depot


Forgive me as I'm pretty tired out at this point, but I'm not sure if you're referring to my old meter socket (image shown previously) or the new one I plan to purchase (linked previously). My current meter socket is old and needs to be replaced.

As previously linked, here's the socket meter I'm going to buy and use in place of the old one. It's 200A rated. I think I should be able to handle the heavy gauge without adapters.

Shop GE 200-Amp Ringless Single Phase (120/240) Meter Socket at Lowes.com

My main concern was how to handle the outgoing 4th conductor.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not sure if you've been following the whole thread or maybe I'm just tired. When you recommended 4/0,4/0,2/0 SEU instead of 4/0, 4/0, 4/0 SEU coming down from the weather head into the meter socket, were you aware this was aluminum wire looking to support a 200A load? The 2/0 is still okay?

 

Yes, the 2/0 aluminum neutral is fine. I normally like a full sized neutral, but this is service cable. A 4/0 neutral is all bare conductors and a lot of them. Getting that many loose conductors into the neutral lug can be a daunting task. I would use the 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 SEU cable.

Somewhere up above you mentioned doing your grounding to the rods and to the water service from the panel inside.....that is wrong. The GECs must ground the neutral at the first overcurrent protection device which is the 200 amp breaker at the bottom of the outside meter/main socket. You'll need #4 copper to the water service and #6 copper to the ground rod/rods. After the meter/main, the neutrals and grounds must be kept separate. If the neutral bus in the inside panel is bonded to the panel box, the bonding screw must be removed. You may need an auxilliary ground bar in that panel because the ground wires cannot be on the neutral bus, but on the auxilliary ground bar.

Ok, I found it.

Ground the neutral like I described above, at the 200 amp breaker in the meter/main. Be sure to buy a package of duct seal. Use some ductseal on top of the socket around the SEU cable where it enters the weatherproof connector, pack a small amount tightly around the cable for extra insurance against leaks. For a grounding block I'd buy an intersystem bonding bridge and install it outside between the meter/mains and the ground rod, clamped onto the #6 copper GEC. All telephone, cable TV and/or antennas can be grounded here.

 

Maybe I confused the issue because I gave that information when he said he was going to run straight to the 200 amp panel. That advice no longer applies.

 

That SEU connector should be fine. When I see those used there is still a duct seal cone around the cable.

The reduced neutral in the SEU should be fine. Your 240 volt loads do not add a load to the neutral so it can be reduced in size.

A 3R enclosure is one rated for use outside in the weather.

 

Pete,

Hope this will help you out some. You can leave the panel mounted as is unless YOU need it to be inverted. The inspector is NOT going to gig you on this.

I have a similar panel mounted and was trying to find the installation documentation in PDF for you, but lo and behold... you have already photographed the relevant notice on your panel door.



Notice in the "accessories" box the following:

There is also an enormous amount of info there which should be useful in picking conductor sizes and properly torquing the lugs.

Hope you are successful, good luck!

 

Gavri'el,

Awesome! Thanks so much. This is a huge load off my mind (no pun intended).

 

As has so often happened, a realization or two changes the way I will approach this.

I've been re-reading what Ray and Joe wrote about ground. (BTW Ray, any time I've questioned your statements it's always turned out that you were right all along and that I either misunderstood what you were saying or I just didn't read carefully)

As it is now, the ground rod conductor is already coming into the house and going to the first OCPD. (which is the Square D 100A) Same for the water service connector. These are my two GECs.

I don't want to bring those GECs outside to a grounding bar. That would involve new holes, filling holes, or adding a conductor to the SER hole, etc. Plus, as I understand, code likes an unbroken conductor coming from the water service and it's not long enough to reach outside without a junction and I really don't want to redo the run. (Code might feel the same way about the ground rod GEC, I'm not sure. Can someone give me a quick yes/no on that?)

Also, the only reason I wanted an outside breaker was in case I needed to flip the GE Service Panel, which, thanks to Gavri'el, is no longer an issue.

So, here's my vision of how the new setup will work. Please red flag any mistakes because this is also my new shopping list.

1. SEU (4/0,4/0,2/0) Alum comes down from the weather head and into the top of my new meter socket.
2. New meter socket has no breaker. Therefore, new meter socket is not the OCPD and so new meter socket only needs three conductors leaving it from the bottom.
3. SEU (4/0,4/0,2/0) Alum exists the bottom of the meter socket. This is the same cable type used from the weather head down. I would no longer be using SER for this purpose as I no longer need 4 conductors leaving the meter socket.
4. When the cable enters the house it goes straight to the GE Service Panel 200A. The 2/0 conductor bolts straight to the neutral bar inside the GE Service Panel. This is now my new OCPD.
5. The conductor from my water service line comes into the GE Service panel and attaches to the neutral/ground bar. The conductor from the ground rods does the same.

So far so good?

Next, I deal with the EGCs (<--- talkin' like a pro now).. by which I mean the phone ground and cable TV ground.

Okay, so far under our new set up, there's a grounding rod conductor coming into the house and attaching to the neutral bar of the GE Service panel (OCPD). Before it gets there, just after it enters the house, it pays a visit to a grounding bar/block that lives outside the GE Service Panel bolted to the wall. (The more casual among us might refer to this block as an intersystem bonding bridge) It is onto THIS grounding bar that I will attach all EGCs in the house, right?

...

Under my new proposed set up, when it comes to attaching the GECs (water and ground rod) to the neutral bar inside the GE Service Panel, can I just bind them to the neutral bar? The photo shows one already bound in this manner on the top right of the panel.

Another thing...

Joe said:
I don't see an auxiliary bar inside my current GE Service Panel.

In other words, please examine my service panel photo and make sure that it has not be altered. In other words, the "bonding screw" has not been removed (as explained in the quote by Joe) My concern is that while the GE Service Panel will be used as the OCPD in the new setup. It was a subpanel before. In other words, I'm not sure if "bonding screw" simply means the screw that bonds the incoming conductor to the neutral bar, or if it means something else more internal to the service panel.

I'm off to online window shop for a new meter socket without a breaker....



edit: Green text that's hard to read says "Water Service Conductor. Attaches somewhere to the Neutral bar just as the current ground rod conductor does above. Right?"

 

I see what the label says and I hope I haven't caused you unnecessary worry, but I still believe I am right. Is it possible that the vertically operating main breaker can be inverted? Was this a convertible loadcenter that had the main breaker added? How old is this GE panel? My point all along is that the main breaker handle must be "UP" when the breaker is on. 240.81 of the NEC clearly states, "Where circuit breaker handles are operated vertically rather than rotationally or horizontally, the "up" position of the handle shall be the "on" position."

When loadcenters were first allowed to be inverted, manufacturers changed their main breakers to operate horizontally instead of vertically. The label's panel schedule is also numbered for the panel to be mounted with either end up, but the label doesn't exactly match the panel. Is this the original cover and door or is it possible the cover and door have been replaced?

Another thought. This was written at the bottom of the accessory box and probably is referring to inverting the accessory devices (ground bars) and not the entire panel. Regardless, you can go by whatever your inspector says.

 

Joe said:
Okay, so by design, I believe the SEU cable uses the casing as the neutral.



Southwire 4/0-4/0-2/0 Aluminum SEU Wire (By-the-Foot)-13097199 - The Home Depot

This is what you mean by "bare conductors and a lot of them." I will need to collect these as neatly as possible and connect them to the meter socket lug. Not only that, but I'll need to leave a nice LONG length of this coming out of the weather head, more than the usual 12-18 inches. Maybe a few feet. Why? Because I intent to put my new weather head in the same place it is now, and I don't want to have to move my insulator (the part the drop line uses for support). As PJMax pointed out, I want to be sure I have enough slack provide a nice drip loop (but not too much that I have conductors slapping again the side of my house). In fact, the way it is now, I have virtually NO drip loop except on the newly changed neutral.



So, I get your point. However, if there is some benefit to using 4/0, I don't want to skimp. If there's no electrical benefit, then the only thing I can think of is future insurance against loose neutral problems. Bigger gauge neutral means that if it every starts to corrode again for any reason, it would take a lot longer before I'd have a problem, right?

BTW, what's the best was to make that neutral/casing into a more cohesive "strand". Just gently twist it enough to form the strand,right?

So, all things considered, the final answer is go with the SE 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 Alum, right?

 

The egc's from the branch circuits all terminate in the breaker panels.

The phone and cable grounds will connect to the ISBT.

A GEC to a rod or water line must be continuous or spliced with an irreversible connection.

 

Joe,

Well, first of all you are right to argue the case for code even if you may not be correct. This is exactly the kind of thing I post here for. It was here when I got the house. I don't know if it was a convertible load center or how old it is. I could look google the serial number, but it's a moot point. I agree the switch should be horizontal, but if this is a code violation then GE is at fault for actually printing on the panel that this was an okay thing to do. (I realize this makes me no less liable). The only reason I can think of that this should be a concern of those who created the code is for the the extreme moron would mistake ON for OFF combined with a situation where that same moron has decided he should be tinkering around in the service panel with the lights and power on all around him.

But at this point, I don't care. I'm going forward without the outside shut off. If the inspector makes an issue of it, the power will already be off and I'll just work through the night to flip it, get it up to code, inspected, and get my power turned back on by the next day. Coffee and swearing may also be involved.

 

Gently unwind the strands and move off to one side of the two hots. It will have a memory and can be organized with a little work. Once that is done bend a small 90 near the far end and spin in the direction of the wrap. It will tighten and make one larger conductor.

My power company wants 3' extra at the head and meter socket.

 

How many feet of SEU cable will be bewteen the meter socket and the 200A service panel?

 

pcboss,

Thanks for the explanation on how to handle the neutral (casing). 3' sounds about right. I'll let the man in the bucket make the final call.

Also, I have enough slack to make both the water service line and ground rod line continuous to OCPD. Thanks for your feedback on that.



Sorry, confused. What are you referring to as the EGCs? I thought this was the phone and cable grounds? If so, are you saying these should terminate inside the service panel (OCPD) to the neutral bar instead of to the ground bar?

Same goes for ISBT. Intersystem Bonding...? A quick google isn't helping unless of course you are referring to the International Society of Beverage Technologists.

I appreciate your help, but please dumb it down for me.

 

Outside: Meter to point of entry into the wall... 2'

Inside: Wall to point of entry into the bottom of the service panel (GE 200A).... about 6'.

How thick is the wall itself? 1'?


2 + 6 + 1 = 9

 

EGC is equipment grounding conductor. This is the been or bare in the branch circuits wiring.

ISBT was the intersystem bonding terminal. The phone and cable group D's connect here.

 

Getting my shopping list together and looking for a spoon feed...

Would someone mind taking a look at these 10 meter socket choices and helping me choose?

No breaker wanted or needed.
Ringless
Horn Type
200-amp rated

Here's what my power co demands:



Choices at my local big box store (Lowes):

EDIT: Trouble with links, so maybe one of these FIVE?

1
http://www.lowes.com/pd_232624-21747...=Horn|Ringless

2
http://www.lowes.com/pd_232632-21747...=Horn|Ringless

3
http://www.lowes.com/pd_287803-21747...=Horn|Ringless

or I could go taller (hub included)

4
http://www.lowes.com/pd_287791-21747...=Horn|Ringless

5
http://www.lowes.com/pd_287794-21747...=Horn|Ringless


I've looked at the stats but I'm too ignorant to understand if any of these is really superior to the other. Would a taller box be easier to work with? Recommendation appreciated. All of these are $50-$70, but for some reason these are no good I can also shop at Home Depot and spend more.

 

pcboss,

Okay, it sounds like I was using the term EGC incorrectly, but at the point I mentioned it (in post #99), I described what I was actually talking about in terms of conductors. To put it another way, is the "been or bare" the neutral bar to which the individual circuits connect inside the 200A GE service panel? In the #99 post I have an image. You'll see a bare copper coming in marked as "from the ground rods". This goes to the neutral bar. Is this correct? Is this also where I connect the conductor coming in from the water pipe?

Any comments on my #99 post very much appreciated.

 

The conductor from the rod and water line both go to the neutral bar.

 

I'd use the #4 meter socket, it's an overhead and meets all the requirements you listed and already has the necessary hub. Is it in stock at your local store?

The first three sockets were for either overhead or underground and cost quite a bit more, no need to spend the extra dollars. Plus, you still would have to buy the proper hub. The last socket, #5, is like #4 except that it doesn't come with the hub. If #4 isn't in stock, buy #5 and ask for a Milbank 2" hub.

I just noticed your specs in post #109 call for 11" width. Maybe you better measure the sockets width when you go shopping. Sockets 4 & 5 are only 8.5" wide.

 

Hey, I'm back.

My laptop started having some power problems so I stopped using it. I was getting my shopping list together when one the electricians I contacted called me back. He was the one I wanted for the job as a good friend recommended him.

Long story short, and don't hate me for this... but despite all the help I got, I ended up going with a pro. Cost me a little over $800. He pointed out a couple of small flaws in the service panel which I fixed. Inspection passed without so much as a murmur about the inverted service panel.

I suspect this whole problem might have had something more to do with the drop line than I was first told because when they came out this time they replaced the whole line.

Voltage now is about 111 on my outlets. I did that space heater test where you test one outlet with the space heater plugged into the the outlet below, first on, then off. I'm still seeing a change in voltage maybe 4 volts. I'm guessing that's normal? Being I've replaced everything from the service panel to the pole, I hope so.

Anyway, I really appreciate all the help I got, particularly from those who checked back again and again to help me along. This forum is a great resource. Thanks very very much and I hope everyone has a great holiday!



THANKS!

 

Joe,
Thanks for all your help. Sorry I didn't end up using it directly.

 

Thanks for letting us know you got it. 111v is within in acceptable range but lower then expected. Did the electrician comment on that? Sounds like it could be the Poco's transformer.

 

Ray,

I'll mention the 111 when I call. It's normal for it to drop slightly when an appliance is turned on (like a 1500w space heater)? This is the same heater I think was damaged, although it sounds better now.

I'd call the PowerCo now, but all my phones are dead. A look outside shows a droopy line. I'm pretty darn sure they ripped part of the line out. I do still have internet. (It's fios). Ah, Murphy, you dirty rat.

Anyway, thanks Ray. You were one of the ones who really checked back on me.

Happy Holidays!

 

No need to be sorry, I am glad you got your problem resolved.