Hot tub install next to metal downspout question

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  #1  
Old 12-20-14, 01:01 PM
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Hot tub install next to metal downspout question

From what I understand if the install of the hot tub is within 5 ft of any metal, that metal must be bonded.

I have attached some pictures for reference. It is in fact the case with my install that I will be well within 5ft of the downspout.

What is the proper way to bond this downspout? I'm not quite clear on what the term bonding means.

Does it mean pound a rod in the ground and connect that rod to the downspout via the proper gauge wire?

Does it mean running the proper gauge wire from the downspout to the hot tub ground? Or the GFCI box?

Here is the hot tub. It requires 40 amp service. I'll be running it in 220v mode. Nordic Hot Tubs - Bella MS

I have a 'hot tub GFCI' kit from Home Depot. I am using #6 wire from the panel to the GFCI box, and out of the GFCI I will run #8 to the tub. The tub requires 40 amp service. I ran #6 from the panel for possible future larger tub.

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  #2  
Old 12-20-14, 01:13 PM
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The bottom right arrow points to the service outlet.

The mid left arrow points to conduit that is plastic, but has electric lines run through it

The top right arrow points to the metal downspout.

Sorry... my picture annotation software is giving me problems.
 
  #3  
Old 12-20-14, 05:43 PM
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You interconnect (suggest using a #6 copper wire) the metal downspout and the hot tub metal framework.

A bond is an essentially resistance-free electrical connection.

By bonding the downspout to the tub framework, someone in the tub and touching the downspout will not possibly experience a voltage difference between those items, complete an electrical path between them, and be electrocuted in the process.

A significant voltage difference between the hot tub frame and the downspout is almost always due to something abnormal. By bonding the two, any dangerous current will go through the bond and a breaker will trip before anyone could get electrocuted touching the two at the same time.

As a separate project, a ground rod may be needed at the hot tub, depending on your local code. If so, a separate #6 copper wire must be run from that ground rod to some point on the existing grounding electrode system which point might be the panel neutral bus or one of the fat (#6 or so) ground wires connected from the panel neutral bus to a water pipe or to another ground rod. Also, the new ground rod would be connected to the hot tub frame.
 

Last edited by AllanJ; 12-20-14 at 06:09 PM.
  #4  
Old 12-20-14, 06:14 PM
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Thanks. Good info!

Is there a certain type of connector I should use to bond this wire to the downspout?

Does it matter where on the hot tub frame work? Could I perhaps use the main grounding terminal?
 
  #5  
Old 12-20-14, 06:45 PM
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There should be a ground lug under the skirt of the tub, typically on the motor.

Ground rods serve no purpose on a hot tub and should not be used.

I would use a lug with a stainless nut and bolt to connect to the downspout.
 
  #6  
Old 12-20-14, 07:27 PM
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I believe that #8 bare solid copper wire is normally used for hot tub and pool bonding, but I am by no means an expert.
 
  #7  
Old 12-20-14, 07:58 PM
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# 8 ground wire for pools and spas. #6 is for grounding electrode ( ground rod) on main services.
 
  #8  
Old 12-22-14, 10:02 AM
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I'm more concerned with the air conditioner compressor and associated disconnect being so close. The inspector may have a problem with that. It wouldn't surprise me if you'll need to do some combination of bonding the a/c equipment, moving the a/c disconnect to the other side of the unit, or erecting a permanent barrier of some type that would make it impossible to touch the tub and the a/c disco at the same time.

You also will have an issue if there is a light fixture outside the sliding door just out of frame. Again there may be some options such as GFCI protection on the lighting circuit, replacing the fixture with a fully enclosed one, or moving the fixture further away from the tub.
 
  #9  
Old 12-23-14, 01:46 PM
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Hmmmm..... how long can the whip be from the disconnect box to the tub?

I could put the tub on the other side of the slider moving it further away from the HVAC unit.
 
  #10  
Old 12-23-14, 01:59 PM
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I believe 6 feet is the maximum flexible whip, but rigid conduit can be longer. The code doesn't explicitly give a maximum distance from the disconnect to the tub, but some local code do specify. Line-of-sight is however a requirement.
 
  #11  
Old 12-23-14, 01:59 PM
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Or ... what if I enclose it with a gazebo type enclosure? It would be like walking out of the door into the hot tub room.
 
  #12  
Old 12-23-14, 02:02 PM
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I could put the disconnect to the right of the door, then run the proper conduit under the slider to the tub, which would be located to the right of the slider, directly underneath that porch light you guessed was there.
 
  #13  
Old 12-23-14, 02:11 PM
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Sometimes the inspector will allow a "permanent barrier" instead of the minimum distances. Unfortunately this is completely up to the discretion of the inspector to work out on a case-by-case basis so it can be tough to plan. I'd recommend trying to get the inspector out on site if you can, otherwise take some pictures in with you when you get the permit. The gazebo idea might work, I've seen a garden lattice / rose trellis type thing work, one other guy added some built-in benches on the deck you would have to walk around to get to the disconnect.
 
  #14  
Old 12-23-14, 03:21 PM
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Hmmm..... what's your opinion on the conduit on the underside of the slider and placing the tub on that side as well. I would then have the porch light, horizontal gutter, and hose bib, plus electrical outlet VS. the hvac unit, disconnect, and down spout.
 
  #15  
Old 12-24-14, 06:50 AM
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If you do need to cross the slider, I'd go above it with the conduit fastened to the eve rather than under the slider. Under the slider it's more likely to be damaged by kicking it or running a hand truck into it; it could also be a bit of a tripping hazard.

I would probably try to keep the tub in your original location marked in red, and deal with the A/C unit if necessary. Moving the A/C disconnect wouldn't be that difficult, bonding the unit wouldn't be that difficult, all if the inspector makes an issue out of it.
 
  #16  
Old 12-30-14, 01:20 AM
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I got the main lines ran and connected to the disconnect tonight. The hot tub is in the location pictured in post 1.

The down spout is screwed together in several sections, then screwed to the gutter. Is it acceptable to bond the tub to the down spout at the lowest point?

Also, the grounding lug on the motor of the tub has a bare copper wire running up to a grounding bar exactly the same style as in the GFCI box. This grounding bar is where I run the ground from the tub to the GFCI panel. I'm assuming (but want to be for sure) that it's OK to bond the down spout to either the motor lug OR the tub grounding bar????
 

Last edited by pdxrealtor; 12-30-14 at 02:14 AM.
  #17  
Old 12-30-14, 08:26 AM
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Can you post a picture of under the tub skirt ?
 
  #18  
Old 12-30-14, 09:32 AM
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Sure thing.... here you go...

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  #19  
Old 12-30-14, 09:45 AM
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Your circuit ground and the bond wires will connect to the terminal bar on the right of the wiring compartment.
 
  #20  
Old 12-30-14, 09:55 AM
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^^ Thanks for clarifying that.

What about the gutter downspout?
 
  #21  
Old 12-30-14, 11:31 AM
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I would think anywhere that you can make the connection would be fine.
 
  #22  
Old 12-30-14, 06:08 PM
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Thanks, again.

Regarding the THWN wire that is going to be run from the shut off to the tub. It will be run in 1 1/4" liquid tight up to the tub entrance. Inside the tub skirt, that conduit is much to large and not flexible enough.

I'd prefer to have some sort of jacket of the THWN wires after they exit the conduit and are routed to the power connection of the tub.

Ideas???
 
  #23  
Old 12-30-14, 07:00 PM
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You should be able to use 1" carflex and a 90 degree connector into the wiring box. The flex should not just stop under the skirt.
 
  #24  
Old 12-30-14, 07:16 PM
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What's the difference between carflex and regular non-metallic LF?

I have 1.25" regular non-metallic LF from the GFCI to the tub skirt. It is entering the tub via a 90* elbow, but it's tight once inside the skirt, and that 1.25" does not just bend at will.
 
  #25  
Old 12-30-14, 07:30 PM
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What's the difference between carflex and regular non-metallic LF?
Carflex is a trade name for non-metallic liquid tight flexible conduit manufactured by Carlon.
 
  #26  
Old 12-30-14, 07:58 PM
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Are the three gray wires going into the terminal block the conductors you ran in the flex?
 
  #27  
Old 12-30-14, 08:36 PM
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No not at all. From tub to gfci i ran the THWN individual lines. That is the setup the previous owner was using.
 
  #28  
Old 12-31-14, 09:59 AM
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What is the SMALLEST conduit I can safely use to run from the tubs power terminals to the 1-1/4" LF entry point?

If I can fit the four wires in 3/4" is that acceptable?
 
  #29  
Old 12-31-14, 10:49 AM
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Do you have 3 or 4 #8's from the disconnect to the tub?
 
  #30  
Old 12-31-14, 10:51 AM
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I have four. Please do explain how I could only have three. I'm just curious. I thought I needed to have a ground from the tub to the disconnect box which in turn runs to the main panel.
 
  #31  
Old 12-31-14, 11:43 AM
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Some tubs are 240 only so you would have the two hots and a ground.

Four #8 THWN will fit in 3/4 LNMF.
 
  #32  
Old 12-31-14, 09:35 PM
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Thanks all of you for the help. I really hate # 6 wire, and liquid flex. Add to that it's barely broke 32* and it's just made the last couple days extra fun.

I ended up going from 1-1/4" to 3/'4" liquid tight under the skirt. I had to use a metallic reducer which doubles as the collar locking the 1-1/4" exterior 90* elbow. I wish I would have gone with a more flexible conduit under the skirt, because the liquid flex makes it difficult to put that piece of the skirt back on.

I have one last question.
I used the metal hold downs for the 1-1/4" LF that runs from the GFCI to the tub. One is right next to the tub. Do I need to bond that? And, if so can I simply wrap my bond wire for the gutter around the mounting screw of the hold down en'route to my down spout lug?
 
  #33  
Old 01-01-15, 01:15 AM
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Small items like straps are not required to be bonded.
 
  #34  
Old 01-01-15, 03:43 AM
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Great. Thanks again. And happy new year
 
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