gfci in new shed

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  #1  
Old 12-21-14, 07:13 AM
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gfci in new shed

Hello, i am wiring my shed for i light, 5 outlets and 1 outside light. I will be installing a new 20 amp breaker from the main box outside, digging a trench and running 10/2 wire in pvc 40. Inside the shed i installed a 4 x4 j box that the power will come into. In that box i have 3 sets od 12/2 wire coming out, one to 4 outlets, one to the light switch and a outlet under the light switch and the last wire going to the outside light. So my question is. Can i run another 12/2 from the j box and run that wire to a gfci, then run the load from the gfci back into the jbox and connect the other 3, 12/2 wires all together so that way all 3 wires would be gfci protected ? O one more question, is it ok to use armorlite mc 10/2 inside pvc buried underground?
 
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Old 12-21-14, 07:22 AM
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There is no need to go back to the junction box after the gfi. Install the gfi in the junction box along with the switches for the lights and the disconnect.

The #12 needs to be protected at 20 amps.

Does the MC say for direct burial?
 
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Old 12-21-14, 07:55 AM
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O one more question, is it ok to use armorlite mc 10/2 inside pvc buried underground?
No. If you are running PVC the entire way use THWN individual conductors. If you want to run cable, then use UF non metallic cable and direct bury it. PVC needs to be buried 18", UF 24" deep.

MC cable is not rated for wet locations nor direct burial. PVC in the outside/ground is a wet location.
 
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Old 12-21-14, 08:02 AM
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The answer to your first question is yes. Since I live in Canada, I had to google what armorlite is, I found that it is manufactured by Southwire and it's actual designation is AC-90, (armoured cable @ 90C) This cable is for use in dry locations and not underground, even though you will be putting it inside a pipe the pipe will undoubtedly fill with water at some point. You must use a cable or set of wires designed for underground installations. Most of the time these cables with have a U in there cable designations. ie NMWU (non-metalic wet/underground) NMWU is a Canadian cable designation, I looked up an equivalent USA type and far as I can tell it would be USE. Ask at the store where you will buy it if the cable is good for underground.
I also suggest that you go with larger cable to your shed, the biggest complaint I hear from customers is "I sure wish I had run a larger cable to the Garage or shed" I would run a 8/3 cable to it and put it on a 50A breaker, then put a small 4/8 circuit panel in the garage. Lots of power for future.
 

Last edited by pcboss; 12-21-14 at 04:13 PM. Reason: corrected brand name
  #5  
Old 12-21-14, 03:05 PM
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Thanks for the quick responses
 
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Old 12-21-14, 03:49 PM
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Since you are going through the trouble of doing this, I would run a minimum of two circuits (one multi-wire) out to your shed. If you choose to install a panel, as Singlepole suggests, you will need to install a disconnect rated for the circuit you are running. This could be a simple switch, to a main breaker in a panel.
 
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Old 12-21-14, 04:10 PM
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One other thing, I dont recommend putting your lights on a GFCI unless it is necessary, if something does happen and the GFCI trips, you will be fumbling around in the dark trying to find your way out.
Yes I forgot to mention that if you go with a panel in the shed you will need a disconnect, rated at the size of the circuit, this can be a back-fed breaker which works well and allows you to stick with the small more inexpensive panel.
South with above should be Southwire Southwire - Leading Electrical Wire, Cable and Cord Manufacturer
 
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Old 12-21-14, 09:06 PM
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Thinking about the small panel and maybe a 30 amp instead of the 20 amp breaker i was going with, putting a shut off could be just a single pole switch, right ? Oh and i was looking at the southwire armorlite, alflex soild metal clad 10/2 and it says the conductors are thhn/thwn . So couldn't i run that inside a pvc underground. I realize that undergroud pvc is considered a wet location but isn't thwn wire for wet locations ?
 
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Old 12-22-14, 05:01 AM
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THHN is suitable for dry locations only, THHN-2 is suitible for wet locations. You cheapest bet is to go with an NM cable assembly since it is used the most it will be the cheapest cable. I must assume that you already have the Armoured cable and wish to use it, if that is the case and you do end up using it, then best to remove the cladding before you pull it into the conduit since it will rot and reduce the life of the conductor coating. Not saying that I condone using it just that if you do..
10/2 will limit you to 120 Volts, adding one more conductor will double your Amperage (30A X 2) and allow for 240V appliances if you ever need one. Singlepole switch will work as a disconnect as long as it is rated for the circuit amperage and is marked as such (main disconnect).
 
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Old 12-22-14, 06:17 AM
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NM cable should not be used without its sheath and it cannot be used outside. Individual conductors need a W in the description to be used outside or in the wet. THWN is one example.
 
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Old 12-22-14, 11:21 AM
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i was looking at the southwire armorlite, alflex soild metal clad 10/2 and it says the conductors are thhn/thwn . So couldn't i run that inside a pvc underground. I realize that undergroud pvc is considered a wet location but isn't thwn wire for wet locations ?
MC cable and/or AC cable are for dry areas. Sure, the THWN rated conductors are fine for buried PVC conduit, a wet area, but the metal sheath of MC and AC cable is not. There is however an exception. If you use PVC jacketed MC cable it can be either direct buried or used in a wet area. I generally discourage any cable assembly from being pulled into conduit.
 
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Old 12-22-14, 07:41 PM
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Yes i did buy the mc cable, was only $94 for 125 L/F . I need 110 feet. And the uf wire onky comes in 100 ft 0r 250 rolls. HD does sell it by the foot, for 1.59 which is much more than the 94 bucks. But i do want to do it right, so i took back the mc cable and niw am looking for uf cabke that can be buried, srill going to use tge pvc because i think that is code here. So anyone kniw the best place to get uf by the foot ib florida or online ? I know i could do 10/3 and a double 20 or maybe go 8/2 and put in a 30 amp breaker. I really dont want to do a subpanel, its a small shed only 12 x 16. I think 20 amp will do me, but maybe i could run 10/3 and not use the red wire until later if i need it ??
 
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Old 12-22-14, 08:04 PM
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Sorry about all the type o's.
 
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Old 12-23-14, 04:48 AM
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The protection rule may apply, normally you would bury your cable to 18" but that cab be lessened to 12" if you have protection, ie conduit or wooden planking etc., by the CEC and I think I read that in the NEC as well, that is not saying that in Florida they have set local rules differently and amended that rule to say you must provide it at any depth, aslo that being said there is no problem using it as added protection. One other note on burying please be sure to use marking tape at 1/3 the depth you bury the cable, it is law and a very good idea. if you dont want to do a sub panel in the shed then you must protect the whole circuit at it lowest rating, therefor if you put a 20 amp breaker to feed it all of the conductors and devices must be rated for 20 amp (#12 AWG), if you have already run #14 in the shed then you must protect the circuit at 15 amps. Here is a suggestion, since you have to install conduit under ground, make it a 1-1/4 or look for 2" DB-II it is cheap, then pull in the smaller cable, if in the future you find you need the extra power out there then you have the option of pulling it out and pulling in a larger one. The shed is smaller than I imagined so this is probably the best option.
 
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Old 12-23-14, 05:04 AM
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pull in the smaller cable
Don't pull cable through conduit. It is a real PITA. Individual THHN/THWN pulls much better.

You can pull 4 #10 THWN, very easily through a 1" conduit, so I don't see the need in larger more expensive ones.
 
  #16  
Old 12-23-14, 06:42 AM
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I have been an Electrician for 30 years, now please explain to me what a PITA is and your reasoning behind not pulling a cable assembly into a conduit which is something that all electricians do on a regular basis, especially underground. As well please provide this DIY-er where he can find a place that will sell him 4 short lengths of #10 wire.
FYI a 3/10 cable will pull easily into a 1" PVC conduit as well, but 2" DBII and 1"PVC both cost approx $75 per hundred feet.
 
  #17  
Old 12-23-14, 07:10 AM
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UF cable is a pain to pull in a conduit. I can't think that too many contractors would be pulling cable in conduits when individual conductors offer a faster pull and greater flexibility.

The conduit would need to be based on the major diameter of the cable.

PITA pain in the .....
 
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Old 12-23-14, 07:10 AM
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explain to me what a PITA
Pain In The @$$.
your reasoning behind not pulling a cable assembly into a conduit
Because individual wires are more flexible and therefore easier to pull.
where he can find a place that will sell him 4 short lengths of #10 wire.
Almost any hardware store.


ECHO ECHO Echo echo
 
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Old 12-23-14, 07:17 AM
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if you dont want to do a sub panel in the shed then you must protect the whole circuit at it lowest rating, therefor if you put a 20 amp breaker to feed it all of the conductors and devices must be rated for 20 amp (#12 AWG),
Why would the devices need to be rated for 20 amps?

your reasoning behind not pulling a cable assembly into a conduit which is something that all electricians do on a regular basis, especially underground.
That is specifically forbidden in my area.
 
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Old 12-23-14, 08:27 AM
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Must be a local code, here protection in the form of a conduit is the preferred method, unless the cable assembly is specifically noted that it cannot be pulled into a conduit there should be no reason to not use it. I would like to know the reasoning behind this rule?
All devices would not need to be 20 amp, but some would, such as switches.
I think I will leave this thread, it is clear that my advice has been over-ridden by everything I have posted, maybe best you ignore everything that I have said chandler, just in case.

UF cable is a pain to pull in a conduit. I can't think that too many contractors would be pulling cable in conduits when individual conductors offer a faster pull and greater flexibility.
Direct buried wire does not need a conduit, so if it was a simple cost saving measure then why would they even use it? When I do a U/G install the conduit runs through the trench but ends 2' from the ends where I leave a small loop for settling reasons, then continue the conduit protection up the wall.

Peace out
 

Last edited by Singlepole; 12-23-14 at 08:44 AM.
  #21  
Old 12-23-14, 11:55 AM
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When I do a U/G install the conduit runs through the trench but ends 2' from the ends where I leave a small loop for settling reasons, then continue the conduit protection up the wall.
A bit unconventional, but not a code violation if there is UF cable in the conduit, maybe it's a common thing in Minnesota. Around here we always used expansion couplings if there were settling concerns. Personally, I'd much rather have a complete conduit system, but that's just my personal opinion.
 
  #22  
Old 12-23-14, 04:50 PM
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Yea i would use thwn wire but it is more expensive tgan the uf-b wtg cabe. And i cant find anyone that will sell 110 l/f of black, white and green. Everyone wants to sell 500 foot rolls. I did run 12/2 mc in the shed with steel j boxes and metal covers, looks really good. But the12 gauge is really hard to work with. I dont know if my outlets are 15 or 20 amp. I got the leviton, they are not heavy duty, but they were not the cheapest. The cheapest was like .69 , i paid $1.99...the heavy duty was like 6.00 ea. Same with the light switches, next grade up. I hope they will work with a 20 amp breaker ? I wired 2 lights, one being a outside motion light, and 5 outlets. All coming from the load side of one gfci, installed at the source coming in. I wired my outlets without pigtails. I ran the incoming to the bottom brass and the outgoing black to the top brass, then wired the two whites on the silver screws, i pigtailed the green and grounded to the metal box and to the green screw on the outlet, is this the correct way to wire the outlets ? O if i decided to put in a 30 amp breaker would the outlets and switches still work . I heard somewhere that the 15 amp gfci i am using has a 20 amp passthru, so i'm guessing my other outlets will work with 20 amp breaker? Thanks everyone i really appreciate all the replys. Even if you all dont agree its ok, all the i can get sure helps!
.
 
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Old 12-23-14, 05:03 PM
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I know the feeling. I could get HD to unreel 125' of 10 THHN in the colors I needed, but at 69 cents a foot. I wound up buying 4 ea 500' reels (white, green, black and red) for 17 cents a foot. That gives me 375 feet of each I can keep for future jobs, or sell to someone and recoup my expense.
 
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Old 12-23-14, 05:49 PM
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The difference between the 15 and 20 is the shape of the slots. The 20 has a T slot.

Your receptacle wiring sounds fine.
 
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Old 12-23-14, 05:52 PM
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Great. So if i end up getting the southwire uf-b 10/2 , its 1.59 a foot, what size pvc should i use? Is 1 inch ok ?
 
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Old 12-23-14, 06:04 PM
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It will be fine. Be sure to pull it in the direction of your bell ends to reduce friction.
 
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Old 12-25-14, 11:02 AM
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The protection rule may apply, normally you would bury your cable to 18" but that cab be lessened to 12" if you have protection, ie conduit or wooden planking etc.,
Not true. Direct buried cable (UF) is required to be buried 24". PVC conduit is required to be buried 18". You can go to 12" if the circuit is 20 amps or less AND GFCI protected. Wood planking does not change the required burial depths of buried conduit or direct burial cable. Concrete on the other hand does. (4")
 
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Old 01-04-15, 09:17 AM
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Hello, sorry had to stop the shed electrical project because of the flu, I'm feling better now and am ready to dig my trench and put in the uf-b wire. I was thinking now that i might want to put in 2 , 20 amp breakers and run 10/3 wire but not use one of the breakers yet, save it for future. So i have a couple questions, should i use a double pole 20 amp breaker ? Hook the black wire to one and the red wire to the other side ? Or should i use two single pole 20 amp breakers, a black wire to one and the red wire to another ? And is it ok to not use one now, save it for future ? I guess i would just put a wire nut on the red wire to cap it off until I'm ready to use it ?
 
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Old 01-04-15, 09:29 AM
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Since you are using a common ground, use a double breaker (red/black) with neutral and ground. It will connect to your sub panel box in the shed and be distributed from there.
 
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Old 01-04-15, 10:14 AM
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Would that be called a tandem breaker ? All the double pole breakers i am seeing at home depot say they are for 240. I saw a article on tandem breakers but cant find one for a ge panelboard. Im not putting in a sub panel in shed. Just running the wires into a 4 x 4 deep box. Maybe ge does not alliw for tandem breakers ?
 
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Old 01-04-15, 11:02 AM
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Would that be called a tandem breaker ? All the double pole breakers i am seeing at home depot say they are for 240. I saw a article on tandem breakers but cant find one for a ge panelboard.
A tandem breaker and a 2-pole breaker are two different things. A tandem is two single pole breakers fed from one leg powering the panel and a 2-pole picks up power from both legs. I wouldn't use a 20A 2-pole breaker on a multiwire branch circuit, but would use two 20A single pole breakers with a handle tie. The code requires a MWBC have a common disconnect (provided by handle tie), but doesn't require a common trip like a 2-pole breaker does. The advantage to using a handle tie is this. If you should have an issue and trip one pole, you can readily see which circuit has the problem as onlt that breaker will trip. Wieh using a 2-pole breaker, both poles trip.

GE doesn't make a tandem breaker. What you want is two 20A Type THQL (full 1" size) breakers and a handle tie.
 
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Old 01-04-15, 08:42 PM
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Ok so two single 20 amp, could i use two 1/2 inch sized ones or do i have to use the 1 inch ones ? (My panel only has 2 one inch open slots left.) And i see on hd they have 1/2 inch handle tie's . And running one uf-b wire, like 10/3, i would connect one black to one of the 20 amp and the red wire to the other breaker and one white to the neutral bus and the bare ground to the ground bus bar, is this correct? Both breakers would share the white and ground ?
 
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Old 01-05-15, 07:36 AM
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could i use two 1/2 inch sized ones or do i have to use the 1 inch ones ?
Yes, that is fine as long as you can get the appropriate handle tie AND as long as the two Type THQP breakers are on separate legs of the panel. I never recommend Type THQP breakers, but that is another issue I won't bring up here. When the breakers are installed, check the voltage across those two breakers and be sure you are reading 240 volts.
 
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Old 01-05-15, 09:05 AM
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If you can't get handle ties for the half size single pole you can get half size double pole but they can easily be put in wrong so you must check for 240 volts at the breaker. Keep in mind why Joe prefers single pole. Also the half size carry the risk someone not familiar with multiwire circuits at a later time may inadvertently move them so they are no longer on both legs
 
  #35  
Old 01-08-15, 08:38 PM
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They have to be on seperate legs ?
 
  #36  
Old 01-08-15, 08:41 PM
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Check for 240 ? I'm not wantig to do a 240 circuit, just 2 120
 
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Old 01-08-15, 09:23 PM
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Checking for 240v is how you determine if the breaker is in the correct position. If it reads 0v between the two poles it is wrong. The line going to the first box of a multiwire circuit will be 240 volts between the red and black wire. The 120v is derived from the neutral (white) and either the red or black.
 
  #38  
Old 01-09-15, 05:34 AM
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If both the red and black were on the same leg in the panel the white could be overloaded and potentially carry twice the current it is designed to carry safely. That was why the check for 240 at the breaker.
 
  #39  
Old 01-09-15, 05:14 PM
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Oh ok. So one i connect to the right side and one ob the left side then check the voltgage on the red and black wires
 
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Old 01-09-15, 05:46 PM
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No, the breakers need to be stacked one on top of the other. Use a two pole breaker or two single poles with a handle tie.
 
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