Kitchen countertop-receptacle height

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  #1  
Old 02-09-15, 07:59 PM
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Kitchen countertop-receptacle height

One wall of my "U" shaped kitchen has a hip wall at 41" The center of this wall will have the sink. Due to floor being not entirely level elsewhere, with the high spot being on other wall, I had to raise cabinets about 1/2" along this wall so they are are about 35". The counter top will be 1 1/4" thick making the height of counter-top at 36 1/4" the back-splash will go on the wall and completely cover it, than a kitchen bar counter will sit on the hip wall overhanging the back-splash slightly. So with the top of that wall being horizontal 1 1/2 stud, that means the highest the horizontally mounted receptacle can be is about 37"-only about 3/4" above counter-top. Is this acceptable? I see this kind of setup all the time with bar height counters, but never paid attention if receptacles were in the back-splash. By code, there would have to be receptacles so I assume that is where they have to go. Just got measured for counters and suddenly I got paranoid about it so thought I better ask.



 
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Old 02-09-15, 08:45 PM
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The measure/template person does not care about exact placement of outlets, only how many, where, and if it will work with given height. The cutouts in splash will be made by installers on site.
That said, I would get bottom edge of box a little higher. I would shave (mortise) the underside of 2 x 4 wall cap (in box locations only) enough to where receptacle will be centered in splash.
The 3cm is very heavy, but the mortising will not effect the wall's ability to hold the weight.
 
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Old 02-09-15, 09:11 PM
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If your countertop is an 1-1/4" thick can you even fit a receptacle in there ?
What is the distance between the red lines ? You'd take that and subtract 1-1/4" to see how much room is left.

The centering is going to be critical.

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Old 02-09-15, 09:58 PM
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I just ran the numbers. I can post a drawing if you like later tomorrow.
Receptacle will fit with mortise as I described, but it needs to be deep, about 1" and won't leave much clearance at top or bottom.

After seeing PJ's concern, I would place counter on hold. Nothing will change except splash height behind sink.
Wall needs to be raised and boxes raised. This is a pain, but when you're paying for 3CM, you want it to be right.
 
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Old 02-10-15, 05:25 AM
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I agree with Brian, the boxes should be higher that what you originally pictured.
 
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Old 02-10-15, 05:34 AM
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As long as the covers will fit you are fine code-wise. I do think they will look odd. I like the idea of cutting some of the bottom of the 2x away to allow the box to be raised.

I would make sure to use adjustable depth boxes to cover the backsplash depth.
 
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Old 02-10-15, 06:49 AM
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thanks all. I guess you all missed the adjustable depth boxes that are in the photo-the blue line practically hits them in PJMax post? so in PJmax altered photo there is 3/4" from blue line to bottom of the boxes (assuming blue line is top of counter), and about 1 1/8 from top of boxes to top of wall. So I only would need to take about 1/4" out of bottom of stud to center box.
 
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Old 02-10-15, 07:00 AM
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After seeing PJ's concern, I would place counter on hold. Nothing will change except splash height behind sink.
Wall needs to be raised and boxes raised. This is a pain, but when you're paying for 3CM, you want it to be right.
I also agree with the pro advice.
 
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Old 02-10-15, 07:19 AM
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well the main thing is code and seem OK there according to pcboss, and I know he is in my state. If I move them, I think I would use my oscillating saw for this. Shouldn't take too long. I was measured Friday and they said 7-10 days so I don't think I have to put on hold. Silestone comes in 3/4" and 1 1/4" (3cm). I know they told me it was going to be 3/4" (which I thought was strange at the time) and if it were, I would be fine with boxes as they are. or maybe they said 3 cm and I heard 3 quarters?

well reviewed with wife and she said leave it as is if it passes code-but I may center it as you guys suggested cause I agree it would look better.
 

Last edited by hammerash; 02-10-15 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 02-10-15, 08:39 AM
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some mock ups of my counter. ends up with 1 1/2" above box and 1/2" below. So I would be taking out 1/2" if I do it.



 
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Old 02-10-15, 09:28 AM
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The mock-ups illustrated the situation perfectly. It would be your choice to move the receptacles.
In my opinion...... they are fine where they are.
 
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Old 02-10-15, 04:58 PM
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I don't mind the position so much, but you're walking a fine line.
The counter may need to be leveled. Ideally, the cabinets are perfectly level and minimal shims are required.
 
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Old 02-10-15, 05:52 PM
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I installed the cabinets myself. level to within about 1/16"-about the thickness of the laser line on my level. But point taken. If I see issue with that after main counter in place, I could hold off on backsplash. I will be getting a counter in laundry room so they will be back and could take care of it then without paying another fee for second visit.
 
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Old 02-10-15, 06:21 PM
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Looks like you can install cabinets better than some pros. I like the way you stabilized the dishwasher end panel until counter is in. The corner cabinet left of sink is also a tough one, or shall I say a PITA. They're great cabinets, especially with lazy susans, but can often be out of square.

Good Job.
 
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Old 02-10-15, 08:55 PM
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Thanks. I cannot tell a lie-I used something called E-Z levelers on the cabinets. Being this is my first time installing cabinets and I am working by myself, I bought these. They are like little jacks that you attach to the bottom of the cabinets and the adjusters poke through holes you cut in toekick area. You attach several cabinets into a run, then put them in place and level them as unit.

I have a "U" kitchen and the 2 corners were a PITA! How can the top of a 3 cabinet run (corner and two more) be level in all directions, but then the face of the corner cabinet be out of plumb? I guess nothing is made perfectly.

I didn't know what to do with that end panel so made some 24" wide fillers and used some "L" brackets for now. also used large L bracket to attach to floor. rear dishwasher foot may hit this so may mortise it later if needed. The top of the end panel is bowed inward in the rear near wall. I am hoping when they install counter that they can then glue me something to underside of counter on the front inside of the end panel. Then I can screw it into end panel and then push rear out and use L bracket to attach top to wall. I would have gotten new panel but I waited a total of 9 weeks due to my frig end panel being bowed and due to my layout, there was no way to pull it straight.
 
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Old 02-11-15, 07:14 AM
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For the front top of dishwasher opening, do you have any leftover fillers or scribe molding?

I'll get back to you on securing and straightening out end panel. You need to be careful with adding wood to the back wall because most quality dishwashers have large tubs and need the full 24" depth.
 
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Old 02-11-15, 07:43 AM
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Yes, have fillers if needed. THis is a two drawer dishwasher. I won't know till I actually get it installed but I don't think I will need to fill the top.

I would just be putting a steel L bracket on back wall. it is less than 1/8" thick.

there is a decorative panel that goes on the side of this panel and I think I can fudge it a little by shimming the top rear between the panel seen in photos and this decorative end panel. given that it will be right under the overhang of counter, I don't think you would even be able to see it, especially given its location in my kitchen-from dishwasher to wall is about 3' to the wall. It is walkway so you are always looking at it from high and counter will obstruct your view.
 
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Old 02-11-15, 07:51 AM
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Sounds like a plan. I would add a receptacle for the dishwasher versus hardwire.
 
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Old 02-11-15, 08:38 AM
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The dishwasher doesn't have a cord, it has a junction box and instructions show hard wiring. Would you suggest get wire (is it SJ rated?) and adding a plug?

you said you would get back to me on the end panel. what were you're thoughts on doing it?
 
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Old 02-11-15, 09:08 AM
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No cord then, you're good with the box (these are a little rare) Bosch is the only one I've seen.
You're good on the panel also. You explained that after my post.

Looks like you have all bases covered. Impressive.
 
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Old 02-11-15, 09:57 AM
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thanks. btw, the dishwasher is kenmore elite.
 
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Old 02-11-15, 05:26 PM
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The dishwasher doesn't have a cord, it has a junction box and instructions show hard wiring. Would you suggest get wire (is it SJ rated?) and adding a plug?
Dishwasher cords are available at the box stores. You need to plug it into a receptacle as a disconnecting means.
 
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Old 02-11-15, 05:33 PM
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If the DW is hardwired it will need a switch as a means of disconnect or a permanently installed breaker lockout at the panel.

Appliance rated cords should be available for your DW.

If Howard County has adopted the 2014 NEC the DW will need GFI protection.
 
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Old 02-11-15, 06:19 PM
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doesn't have a cord, it has a junction box and instructions show hard wiring
I should explain my response. A standard dishwasher wiring box should have an appliance cord attached.
When I saw the term junction box: There are a few new dishwashers that come complete with an external (plastic) junction box and provide disconnect means there. Bosch is one of them.
 
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Old 02-11-15, 07:03 PM
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there is no disconnect at the box on the side of dishwasher. will look for dishwasher cord next time at big box. will have to cut hole and put in a box with GFCI too. Thank you all.
 
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Old 02-11-15, 07:18 PM
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Bill, I might have to do a quick job in Catonsville next week. Will you be working on the house?
 
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Old 02-11-15, 08:26 PM
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should be here. just give me a call/text. I will PM you.
 
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Old 02-11-15, 08:33 PM
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If I have to put it on GFCI, can I run that wire I have behind the sink cabinet that I was going to hardwire with and bring it into a box next to the box I have for the garbage disposal? Hate to have a GFCI behind the dishwasher and have to pull it out if it trips. I would then run the cord through a hole in the side of the cabinet and plug it into the receptacle. would I need any special rating on the cord to do this?
 
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Old 02-12-15, 02:47 AM
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The gfi needs to be readily accessible so behind the unit will not work. The cabinet next to the DW should be fine, but may need to be at the panel. I have not read the exact words.

The cord just needs to be a listed appliance cord set for the unit.
 
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Old 02-12-15, 08:15 AM
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If I have to put it on GFCI
If the dishwasher has to be GFCI protected you must be on the 2014 code. If that is in fact the case, you probably also have to have the circuit AFCI protected too. If this is true, this would be a good application for a dual function combination AFCI/GFCI circuit breaker. Both Square D and Eaton/Cutler-Hammer make them.
 
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Old 02-12-15, 09:59 AM
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OK, so actually my county is on NEC 2011 starting on 7/9/2012. But when I started this project we were on NEC 2008, and that is what I was following at the time. So I am hoping that all the work will be inspected using 2008 codes. for 2010 I know there were some minor changes that would effect me (no switch loops was one that stands out but I only have one and it is for outdoor receptacle and the inspector had said that was fine). I don't know what changes there were between 2010 and 2011 but I guess the dishwasher on GFCI and AFCI is one of them. I have my two kitchen circuits that are GFCI (not AFCI) , but my frig, microwave, dishwasher, garbage disposal-they are not AFCI and I don't think they got GFCI either by 2008 code?

I also used Multi-wire branch circuits in kitchen-ran 12/3 for kitchen small appliances, frig +micro, dishwaher+garbage disposal. Have these been banned since NEC 2008? for small appliances I ran into junction box in crawlspace below kitchen and then ran two 12/2 from there with the first receptacle in each being GFCI.

for frig+micro ran 12/3 to frig, then 12/2 to micro. for dishwasher +garbage disposal, I have 12/3 to box in sink cabinet. I now intend to expand that to two gang and put two receptacles.

so by 2008 code, do the frig/micro and diswaher/garbage disposal need GFCI? for 2011 code, do they need AFCI and GFCI? they make double pole AFCI so I could add it to these MWBC if needed, assuming the AFCI breaker works on MWBC and then use GFCI receptacles.

just when I thought this thread had run it's course!
 

Last edited by hammerash; 02-12-15 at 10:57 AM.
  #32  
Old 02-12-15, 07:36 PM
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OK, so actually my county is on NEC 2011 starting on 7/9/2012. But when I started this project we were on NEC 2008, and that is what I was following at the time.
You should be getting inspected to whatever code was in effect when your permit was issued.

I don't know what changes there were between 2010 and 2011 but I guess the dishwasher on GFCI and AFCI is one of them.
No, that would be 2014 NEC.


I only brought it up because you had mentioned......
hammerash
If I have to put it on GFCI, can I run that wire I have behind the sink cabinet that I was going to hardwire with and bring it into a box next to the box I have for the garbage disposal?

I also used Multi-wire branch circuits in kitchen-ran 12/3 for kitchen small appliances, frig +micro, dishwaher+garbage disposal. Have these been banned since NEC 2008?
No, they have not been banned. The 2008 NEC, which you started under, does require handle ties on the multiwire branch circuit single pole breakers (or use a 2-pole breaker).

so by 2008 code, do the frig/micro and diswaher/garbage disposal need GFCI?
No
 
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