Exterior outlets for 2 small fountains

Reply

  #1  
Old 02-14-15, 10:55 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
Exterior outlets for 2 small fountains

Name:  IMAG1639.jpg
Views: 707
Size:  39.5 KBName:  IMAG1642.jpg
Views: 697
Size:  29.1 KBRunning new 15A circuit to add 2 exterior outlets.

One will be surface mounted on the back of the house to plug in one of the fountains. I want to tap into this outlet and continue the run to the 2nd outlet for the other fountain about 20 feet out in the garden.

Is it okay to tap into the first outlet and run a line to the 2nd?

I have already dug a trench 18" deep to the 2nd fountain and purchased UF cable.

How do I mount the 2nd outlet at the fountain and how far from the fountain can this outlet be? I was thinking either a piece of conduit or pressure treated cedar 2x4 buried in the trench.

The cord for the fountain in the garden is a three prong and only extends about 5" from the bottom of the fountain.

The run will be going through the crawlspace to the back of the house.
 

Last edited by Stumped1; 02-14-15 at 11:17 AM.
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 02-14-15, 12:01 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
Is it okay to tap into the first outlet and run a line to the 2nd?
Yes.
I have already dug a trench 18" deep to the 2nd fountain and purchased UF cable.
Minimum burial depth for cable is 24". It can be mounted on a 4x4 post. I'd go with treated. Cedar from my experience rots as fast or faster then any untreated wood. Better would be a PVC receptacle mount. Example: http://www.amazon.com/Arlington-Indu.../dp/B002W6ZP0K

Outside receptacles must be GFCI protected. Normally a 20 amp circuit with #12 is used. Both receptacles will require weather proof receptacles and in use covers.
 
  #3  
Old 02-14-15, 12:42 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
Checked the breaker box and there is a spare 20 amp breaker I can use. I noticed the breaker is missing the tightening screw, can I buy a replacement?
 
  #4  
Old 02-14-15, 02:04 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 4,297
Also any exposed wiring from the ground to the box needs to be run in conduit.
A whole new breaker is only about $10.00 or less.
I've never seen the screws sold separately.
Just make sure it's the same brand and style.
Might take a whole 30 sec. to change.
 
  #5  
Old 02-14-15, 02:04 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
I'd just buy a new breaker. You were going to buy one anyway for 15 amps. Just make it a 20. I'd be suspicious of an unused breaker missing a screw. Why gamble as cheap as 20 amp breaker is?
 
  #6  
Old 02-14-15, 05:51 PM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,587
If you switch to a 20 amp breaker the wiring needs to be #12.

I second the Garden post from Arlington.
 
  #7  
Old 02-14-15, 06:46 PM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,379
Outside receptacles must be GFCI protected
They also need to be weather resistant.

on the Arlington Garden Post.
 
  #8  
Old 02-14-15, 07:15 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
I will pickup a 20 amp breaker. I have liquid tight connections and conduit for the run into the ground and backup again at the 2nd fountain.

I looked at the hardware store today for the post but no luck. I can get it on Amazon.

Couple question on the run from the breaker to the crawlspace.

The service panel is on the outside wall of the garage with the wiring going through the garage wall and then it is about 20 feet to the crawlspace. I think I can run the 12/2 standard cable through armored cable to the crawlspace entrance, then exposed 12/2 stapled along the base boards in the crawl space to the back wall, through a pipe to the exterior outlet.

I understand the exterior wiring connections, just not sure about the run from the garage through the crawl space.
 
  #9  
Old 02-15-15, 09:12 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
GFCI with switch to run two outlets

I want to wire 2 outdoor outlets for 2 separate fountains, so that when I flip the switch on the first outlet it turns on both fountains.

First box will have GFCI with separate outlet and switch. I want the switch to power a fountain plugged into the first outlet and a second fountain plugged into another box about 20 feet away.

Can I do this with only one wire going from the first box?
And will the first GFCI also protect the second outlet?
 
  #10  
Old 02-15-15, 09:30 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
I have merged your threads since they are really the same.
Can I do this with only one wire going from the first box?
No. Every electrical circuit requires two wires. I think though you actually meant one cable not wire. Wire is a single conductor. Cable is two or more conductors in a metallic or non metallic sheath.

Generally a switch is at least waist height and easily assessable. How high will the first receptacle be? Sounds like it would be better to place each in a separate box best positioned for its function.

One switch can control both receptacles and if the second receptacle is fed from the load side of the first it can be protected by the first GFCI. In that case the second receptacle would be a non GFCI weatherproof receptacle.
 
  #11  
Old 02-15-15, 09:48 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
Yes. I meant cable, thanks for clarifying.

Makes sense to make each box independently switched GFCI.

I was thinking a combo GFCI/switch outlet, rather than separate receptacles. Could this be done with only once cable?
 

Last edited by Stumped1; 02-15-15 at 10:11 AM. Reason: remove sonsensical ramblings
  #12  
Old 02-15-15, 11:35 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
Makes sense to make each box independently switched GFCI
I didn't write that. I wrote:
One switch can control both receptacles and if the second receptacle is fed from the load side of the first it can be protected by the first GFCI.
Meaning one switch would turn off both receptacles.
I was thinking a combo GFCI/switch outlet, rather than separate receptacles.
I wrote:
Generally a switch is at least waist height and easily assessable. How high will the first receptacle be? Sounds like it would be better to place each in a separate box best positioned for its function.
Also the switches on a combo are sometimes rated for only 10 amps. Good for lights but not for receptacles that could draw more then 10 amps. If you use a combo be sure the switch not just the receptacle is rated 15 amps.
Could this be done with only once cable?
Yes. Sorry I wasn't clear on that in my last post. Even if you wanted to independently switch them it would still be one cable. You just might need to add a 3-conductor cable depending on how you wired it.

One way to wire it:

Name:  Siding.jpg
Views: 2886
Size:  51.4 KB

Notes: Conduit from under the house actually comes into the back of the box not side. Conduit from bottom of receptacle box is only a sleve that stops a few inches underground. It is only to protect the UF cable above ground. Not scale. Switch would be higher then shown, about 4'-5' above ground. Must be a weather proof switch or bubble protected. Line terminals are shown at the bottom of the receptacle. Your switch's line terminals may be different.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 02-15-15 at 03:39 PM.
  #13  
Old 02-21-15, 09:47 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
Connecting to main panel from garage side

Name:  IMAG1691.jpg
Views: 797
Size:  27.1 KB



This photo shows how previous electrical contractors added circuits to the main panel. All done by licensed electricians. The one on the far left with the armored cable was the last one added.

How do I make a hole to run a line to the box? Should I chisel out a portion of the left side of the armored cable? This side seems to have more room.
 
  #14  
Old 02-21-15, 11:48 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
Show us the inside of the panel with the cover removed so we can see how those conduits enter. The step back and give us a wider view of the area around the panel.
 
  #15  
Old 02-21-15, 12:15 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
Name:  IMAG1694.jpg
Views: 535
Size:  31.6 KBName:  IMAG1695.jpg
Views: 536
Size:  22.9 KBName:  IMAG1696.jpg
Views: 601
Size:  41.1 KB

Here are the photos. Included is a close up shot of the breakers. It looks like all of the 20 amp breakers are 2 breaker sets? Not sure what they are called but looks like two are installed as one unit.
 

Last edited by Stumped1; 02-21-15 at 12:39 PM.
  #16  
Old 02-21-15, 01:14 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
2 breaker sets?
That would be a 2 pole 240 volt breaker. You seem to have an unused 20 amp 120 breaker, left side, second from the top.

Is the picture of the conduits on the outside wright side up? There should be knock outs in the bottom of the panel I make a small hole (maybe 3"x3") in the inside wall directly below the panel knock out and come into the wall from the outside and then up into the panel.
 
  #17  
Old 02-21-15, 01:20 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
The picture is right side up. There are knockouts on the interior and bottom of the box. They chose to use the interior. I would prefer to use the bottom knockouts because the interior slots are pretty crowded.

Would I use a 90 degree conduit going from the wall up into the box?
 
  #18  
Old 02-21-15, 01:42 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
You would use a conduit ell into the wall with a short stub of conduit into the wall space. It would not go all the way to the panel. If you use individual wires you would use a bushing in the knock out. If you used UF cable you would use a cable connector.

The wiring will be some what different if you are coming out of the panel with conduit rather then what I thought would be a cable run through the basement. How far is the panel from where you want the receptacle?

Name:  lb.jpg
Views: 546
Size:  16.3 KB
 

Last edited by pcboss; 03-08-15 at 08:35 PM.
  #19  
Old 02-21-15, 05:06 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
It's about 75 feet from the panel to the outlet. I purchased 12-2 armored cable. The cable will go up the wall, along the top of the garage, then down to the crawlspace entrance, which is about 20 feet. The rest of the run will be in the crawlspace. A straight run to the back of the house then about 15' to the left, perpendicular to the joists.

From what I have read I can staple to the joists until I reach the back wall. From there I would have to drill holes in the joists to go across to where the outlet will be.
 
  #20  
Old 02-21-15, 05:17 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
Most armored cable isn't rated for outside use. What kind of cable did you buy?
 
  #21  
Old 02-21-15, 07:35 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
I bought 12/2 MC cable for garage through the crawlspace. I bought 20 feet of UF cable for the outdoor underground run to the fountain. I thought I could transition from the MC cable to the UF at the first outlet.
 
  #22  
Old 02-21-15, 08:21 PM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,587
You can make the transition at the junction box.
 
  #23  
Old 02-22-15, 08:08 AM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,379
It looks like all of the 20 amp breakers are 2 breaker sets? Not sure what they are called but looks like two are installed as one unit.
If you mean on the left side, these are 20A tandem single pole breakers.

I see an available 20 amp circuit in the panel, bottom of the top tandem breaker on the left side. You won't have to purchase any more breakers for your project.
 
  #24  
Old 02-22-15, 07:53 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
That spare breaker is the one that is missing a tightening screw. I bought a new breaker since their so cheap.
 
  #25  
Old 02-24-15, 10:43 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
I found 2 versions of this electrical box conduit shown above, threaded and non-threaded. Seems like threaded would work better?
 
  #26  
Old 02-25-15, 07:33 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
PVC conduit is shown above. PVC is never threaded so if threaded you are looking at the wrong conduit. It is joined with gray PVC cement. Adapters to thread can be added to it for such things as fastening in boxes with conduit nuts.
 
  #27  
Old 03-08-15, 08:06 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
Today I ran the MC cable through the garage and crawlspace to where the outlet is located.

Before I started I fed some wire through the outlet (3' high on outside wall) thinking it would drop down to the crawlspace where I could tape it to the conduit and the pull up through the wall to the outlet. wrong

How do I feed the cable up to the outlet without having it look like it the other conduit in the photos that feeds our AC?

I was thinking I could drill through the stucco with a long bit and it would open a hole in the crawlspace where I could grab the wire and then tape it off and pull it up to the outlet.

Does this sound feasible?
 
  #28  
Old 03-08-15, 08:17 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
Yes if I understand you. You have kind of lost me. Is the MC you are using rated for outside use or is none of it outside? If it isn't rated for outside you need to come into the back of the receptacle box.

Receptacle box is what you mean by outlet correct? It is surface mounted isn't it? Pictures of what you have so far might help.
 
  #29  
Old 03-08-15, 09:43 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
MC cable is only on the inside. UF on the outside.


Thanks.
 
  #30  
Old 03-15-15, 10:43 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
the receptacle box is surface mounted about 3 feet up from the trench in the photo. I was thinking it might be easier to drill up through the floor in the crawlspace?

How is this usually done?
 
  #31  
Old 03-15-15, 11:09 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
I was thinking it might be easier to drill up through the floor in the crawlspace? How is this usually done?
Do you mean the stud space of the wall the receptacle box is mounted on? A picture of where you want to drill might help.
 
  #32  
Old 03-15-15, 11:30 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
Here is a photo of the receptacle box. Yes, I mean drill up through the stud wall space from the crawlspace.Name:  IMAG1705.jpg
Views: 555
Size:  25.2 KB
 
  #33  
Old 03-15-15, 01:11 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
Is that the switch box or receptacle box? What is the cable in the picture?
 
  #34  
Old 03-15-15, 04:08 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
this is the switch box. There will be a 2 outlet receptacle and a combo switch outlet receptacle in this box. The switch will power the receptacle in the combo unit and the other fountain.
 
  #35  
Old 03-15-15, 04:59 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
If the crawl space is behind the box just drill a hole into the back of the box from the crawl space and run the power cable up on the inside of the crawl space and into the box.
 
  #36  
Old 03-15-15, 05:49 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
I don't have direct access to the back of the box from the crawlspace.

So it seems I am stuck running two cables. One up into the receptacle box and another into the ground out to the second fountain.

Now I understand why they did it this way for the air conditioning unit.


The other option would be to mount the box low on the wall next to the crawlspace vent.
 

Last edited by Stumped1; 03-15-15 at 06:50 PM.
  #37  
Old 03-15-15, 07:31 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
The other option would be to mount the box low on the wall next to the crawlspace vent.
Which is what I originally suggested with the switch in a second box at a convenient height.

From my previous post:
Attachment 46538

Notes: Cable from under the house actually comes into the back of the receptacle box not side. Conduit from bottom of receptacle box is only a sleeve that stops a few inches underground. It is only to protect the UF cable above ground. Not scale. Switch would be higher then shown, about 4'-5' above ground. Must be a weather proof switch or bubble protected. Line terminals are shown at the bottom of the receptacle. Your switch's line terminals may be different.
If you wish to add an always on receptacle to my original plan it will be simple.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 03-15-15 at 07:53 PM.
  #38  
Old 03-15-15, 09:41 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
Did I mention I am terrible at reading electrical diagrams?

I thought your diagram was an exploded view of what I wanted to do...

Now that I get it this should not be too hard to finish.
 
  #39  
Old 03-15-15, 10:30 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 930
Can I buy #12 THWN wire in small quantities? I only need enough for this project.
 
  #40  
Old 03-15-15, 10:31 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
And you now know why I didn't understand your questions. That diagram was more for box placement then wiring. If you need a easier to see wiring diagram for the two boxes or want one unswitched receptacle. You already have a 2-gang box so adding an always hot receptacle would be easy. Then you'd just need to buy a single gang box for the switch.

THWN wire is sold by the foot.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes