Exposed electrical boxes

I'd like to leave a couple receptacle boxes exposed. The house and wiring is 1962 so no ground. I'll use conduit but the boxes will be about six feet off the ground and the conduit will only cover a small amount of wire. Does code require metal boxes or because of no ground maybe not?

 

If these are new receptacles you can't extend the existing wiring to them.

 

This is confusing, as far as what you want to do....

Exposed - Does this mean you want to mount the boxes on the wall? Surface mount?

6' off the ground - Wall sconces or garage carriage lights? There aren't too many devices 6' high.

Small amount of wire in conduit - The wires should be contained in conduit all the way back to the downstream source. If done properly, and with a test to verify, the conduit could also serve as ground.

 

I'll try to explain. I took out a short wall (6ft) with old wiring in it. I'm opening up part of the wall next to that where the cables come down from the ceiling between the studs. I want to leave the upper part of that section open to let light through so I want to attach the boxes to the studs (surface mount) but will keep them up high because they are near a sink. I will leave the low wall at the back of the sink (3ft). I'm not extending to new work, just moving what's there. I'd like to put in decent looking boxes but thought they were supposed to be metal but there's no ground to ground the boxes so can I use plastic? I'll use gfci recepts and a switch for a ceiling light. There is no access beyond what is already exposed. The conduit will not act as a ground, it will only protect the cable from physical damage and give it a more finished look.

 

A side note: within the wall was a dead end cable with taped ends. I wondered why that one switch didn't seem to switch anything. That was done when the house was built. I bet that guy thought no one would ever see his lazy work. It took 52 years. And you know, I see that kind of stuff in every old house I work on.

 

Pictures please. http://www.doityourself.com/forum/li...rt-images.html

 

Yeah, I know. I have to get the camera out.

 

Having a bit of trouble loading file.

That worked. I'm moving the boxes to the opening to the left and taking out some more drywall at top of opening. One double 2x4 is supporting.

 

From the other side.

 

I love the way plumbers and electricians cut through structural members and compromise the structural integrity of the house.

 

Drilling relatively small holes through the center of the studs for the cables does not adversely affect the structural integrity.

You MAY need to add a receptacle to either side of the sink to meet current code. The first receptacle needs to be within 24 inches of the corner (unless there is one to the right of the corner we can't see) and then another receptacle every 48 inches. These must, of course, be GFCI protected and for the entire kitchen there must be at least two such circuits and they must be wired with #12 conductors connected to a 20 ampere circuit breaker serving ONLY kitchen counter top receptacles. Since you have the walls open this upgrade is mandatory. You MAY need to only do this wall with a single circuit IF this is the only wall that is opened.

And yes, you would need a permit for the electrical.

 

Thank you Furd. Good information. But to my original question. Surface mount.

Personally I would never drill holes in a main supporting post but that's just me I suppose. This is nothing compared to some of the damage I've seen in older houses. Builders put up a good structure then contractors come in and undermine it. I would guess that third three foot 2x4 is meant to make up for the weakening done by a couple holes. No worries, it's hidden inside a wall.

And according to the city you need a permit to take a crap. It's about revenue. If it was about safety the permits would be free. Do you remind everyone they need a permit? Because if you did every post would get a reminder.
Apparently the inspector missed that taped dead end in the wall. Hey, no offense, just sayin.

 

The permit fees pay for the inspection cost like salaries, gas to get there etc. The people that need inspections pay for this. Otherwise your taxes would need to go up so everyone would pay, not just the users.

 

I recommend you keep some wall behind sink area and move your receptacles to that area.
If you plan on cutting down the wall, you can cap the wall with wood, granite or whatever.
Here's my take on this. You have 2 or 3 concerns that aren't valid.

- Move receptacles/electric away from sink. Not needed, place them a reasonable distance away

- Move electric up high. This is more dangerous than having electric near sink. Higher cords would be a snag hazard, appliances could be pulled into the sink or pulled off counter. Also, any counter top appliance will not have a cord that can reach high, that's for safety.

- And not to beat a dead horse, but the holes in no way harm the structural integrity of any members, load bearing or not. The cables must pass through structural members at times.

 

Very similar to what I had in mind but I wanted to extend the countertop over the wall to about a foot the other side. One big flat surface. I see and agree with your point re: high receptacles. Just makes me nervous putting them so close to the sink. There is one a couple feet past the edge of the pic. I'll seriously consider your plan. That's why I only took off the drywall. I haven't decided exactly what would work best. Just know I want to get rid of that light blocking wall.

 

But I still don't know what you meant when you wrote:It sounds like you want to surface mount the receptacles. There is no reason to do that and best practice they shouldn't be surface mounted. Also not a clue about the conduit or why. Can you explain more fully?

 

Thank you Ray2047. I wanted to mount the recepts to the exposed stud about 18 inches above the countertop. There is no ground, only one black and one white wire. I was thinking code required metal boxes but since I can't ground those boxes wouldn't plastic be better. The conduit would mainly be for appearance. I guess it's kind of an industrial look.

Maybe 6 feet was over estimating the height. More like 4 1/2 to 5. The conduit will run about 2 ft up and end inside the wallspace. Some physical protection for the wire but maybe not realistically needed.

 

A receptacle is required within 24" of each side of the sink. There are some other options besides putting them in the half wall.

You can put them on/in the face of the base cabinets just under the countertop. Electric code allows this, but some building codes and fire safety codes do not due to the risk of a child pulling a hot plate down onto them. Personally I don't like that option, but I'll throw it out there as a legal one.

You could put pop-up or nozzle box recessed right in the countertop / bar. See Lew Electric for a variety of boxes and covers to achieve that. Note that the receptacle face-up boxes (in-floor) style are not allowed in kitchens due to flooding risk, but the pop-up and nozzle style are OK.

Kitchen Products - Lew Electric Fittings Company
Nozzle Series - Lew Electric Fittings Company

 

I understand what you want to do, but I would not recommend it. It's nice to have one large flat surface, and counter area behind the sink, but it won't work for you.
You can have the best of both. Build/cut your wall about 8-10" higher than counter top.
The 8-10" high area (or whatever) can be used to install receptacles in wall. The wall can be capped, this cap will be the extra counter space you're looking for.
Receptacles near sinks have been around forever. In the past maybe safety was an issue, but it happened anyway. Now with modern GFCI protection, you will be fine.

I also question no ground in kitchen wiring in 1962. Are you sure NM cable has no ground wire?
It was typical for the majority of house to be ungrounded, but usually the kitchen would be.

 

Interesting ibpooks. But my fear of water and electricity getting together precludes those options. I was even tempted to end that circuit and use a waterproof cover for the switch but seems like over kill.

 

That is why 20A grounded, GFCI protected circuits are mandatory in all kitchens, dining and pantry areas. Water is certainly a concern, but so are stretching cords too far, overloading circuits, creating spill/trip hazards. Kitchen receptacle spacing and circuit design take all of these considerations into account.

 

Yeah, unfortunately no ground. Oddly though one cable is sheathed in plastic, like romex, but no ground. I'll use gfci receptacles. I don't believe they need a ground to work. Tell me if I'm wrong about that.

The low (8-10 inch) wall is a possibility but it will block some natural light to the countertop. I may go that way just for ease of keeping electric but it's going to be a trade off in this app. Even with the studs and junk still there the sink area is usable now without turning on a light. Huge difference.

 

GFCI protection does not require the ground wire to work correctly. No ground in 1962 is a little surprising to me, but I suppose. Can you pull some new cables back to the panel?

 

No, cable goes up through wood at some point turns 90 degrees toward panel. Doesn't look feasible. But if gfci works wouldn't that negate the need?

I don't know what year they started using a ground wire but like that hanging cable end there seems to be no explaining some work.

Handyone, I'm not worried about the couple holes in that load bearing post, the plumber also put a pipe through it lower down, it's just a sore spot with me as it conjures up memories of godawful work to houses I've owned and the trouble and expense of repairing it. I know contractors go by blueprints in new construction but I don't have to and can find ways do avoid structural members altogether.

 

The new cable does not have to follow the same path. Is there an unfinished attic above or unfinished basement below.

Science note: Water does not conduct electricity well. Impurities in the water do. Tap water with few impurities would likely not be a good conductor.

 

Very small crawl space under house, no attic, rafters are the ceiling. But, aren't gfci receptacles enough? Or since the sink is there with copper pipe available couldn't I run a ground a few feet to a pipe?

I'd never heard that about water's conductivity. Since our bodies are mostly water you could think of us as an impurity.

 

With that much of the wall open the inspector may want to see new wiring, especially since the old did not have a ground. Once the walls are open the rules requiring updating change.

As far as receptacles near water, you can place a receptacle or switch 1/16" outside the footprint of the tub or shower and meet code. It is not the issue you are imagining.

 

How will the rules change?

 

Since you now have access and are remodeling some areas may make you bring everything up to correct codes regarding required circuits, spacing etc. If the walls were not opened you would have been grandfathered as is.

 

Part of my goal is to bring it up to code, that's why I ask the questions.

 

Less than 18"?

.

 

I haven't measured but I believe less than 18". More like 12", 18 would be decent. Plus I'm large size. But can I run a ground wire to a copper water supply line that's within a few feet?

 

The wiring cannot be grounded to the waterline unless certain conditions are met. Most of the time these are not met.

 

And yet when we tell you what the "code" wants you come up with various excuses why you can't or don't want to do what is required. No one here is going to sprinkle holy water on a bad idea.

 

I keep looking for specific answers. Don't need holy water.

 

You have been given specific answers. You need to update the wiring in that open wall. You need to install the proper receptacle spacing along that wall. You need a permit (most likely) for the electrical work required. Don't want to take my (or anyone else's) advice? Fine with me as i get paid the same (zero) regardless.

 

Is the perpendicular wall an outside wall?

 

It's concrete block. Enclosed porch on other side.

 

Gentlemen, I appreciate the help but it's no big deal, I'll take care of it.

 

Then that is probably the path for the new electric.