Kitchen remodel: moving range receptacle

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Old 04-01-15, 03:03 PM
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Kitchen remodel: moving range receptacle

Extensively read this and other forums on the subject to the point where I have decided if it's pure aluminum wire I'm hiring an electrician. Can't access range plug to look at connections at this time as I am not currently in the same state as building.

I'm interested in extending a range outlet approx 18" (not enough slack). Will have access cut in new cabinet to provide accessibility to junction box (after removing drawer). The attached pic shows the panel. Just need confirmation (if possible). This looks to be 4 wire 6 gauge. Breaker is currently 50 amp. It is installed in an apartment/condo built in the mid 1980's.

1) Why are the two hot leads both black (I thought red was a requirement)?
2) This does look like 4 wire correct? What throws me is the "insulation" on the ground looks like it was added in after the wire was pulled into the box (is this common)?
3) As said, I'm not cool with aluminum wire, but is tinned copper (which is what the ground looks like) able to be extended by a relatively skilled homeowner. Knowing I have to get the mechanical connections (not wire nuts), but unsure about having to use noalox.
4) Any ideas why the neutral would have it's insulation split down it's length?

I can give further info if it is needed, just don't want to load the post down with extraneous stuff.

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  #2  
Old 04-01-15, 03:14 PM
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Aluminum wire is fine on a range circuit because the terminations on either end are rated for it and it is rarely disturbed. It is only a problem on general purpose branch circuits that have dozens of connections per circuit, and the receptacles get wiggled every time you use them.

Nothing looks too odd about the termination of the range circuit in the panel box. Coloration of hot wires is any color other than green, white or grey which are reserved for ground and neutral respectively. Red is not a requirement. Noalox is not mandatory but it is good practice. The crack on the neutral is probably just in the white pigment coat applied over a black wire during manufacture.

To the initial question though, why not just use a longer range cord?
 
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Old 04-01-15, 03:35 PM
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Sometimes I over think things (gotta agree with the wife on this one).

I guess I thought having the plug run behind the cabinet would not be "professional looking", even though it would be accessible. It'll be a couple of weeks before I get to look at it again so I will check to make sure that is an option. Obviously it would require me to hack the cabinet a bit more which is still probably better than messing with the electrical.

For some reason I didn't think that would be an option but can't remember why now. Any one have any experience with putting a range plug behind a cabinet and the issues it might create? I can mod the cabinet pretty easily.

Thanks for the 2X4 to the head ibpooks.
 
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Old 04-01-15, 03:48 PM
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Any one have any experience with putting a range plug behind a cabinet and the issues it might create?
I was just wondering why you would want to do this at all? Why can't the receptacle be behind the range?
 
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Old 04-01-15, 04:11 PM
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The range is being shifted over approx 18". Where it is now will be a cabinet.
 
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Old 04-01-15, 05:14 PM
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Wiring from the 80s is too new to be tinned copper.

The plug would not count as the means of disconnect if mounted remotely. It needs to be accessed at the unit through the drawer. Also the hole to pass the plug through a cabinet would be large.
 
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Old 04-01-15, 05:49 PM
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The receptacle should be in the cabinet not behind it. Is that what you really meant?
 
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Old 04-01-15, 05:53 PM
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Pcboss, so what I understand you saying is

1) A plug that passes through the sidewall of a cabinet next to a range is considered remote because you have to remove a drawer (5 sec operation)? Although it would be quite a hack job, if possible to make the hole in the sidewall large enough to access the plug would that be okay?
a) Assuming the above, would people with more experience than I still suggest going the route and cost of extending the line vs leaving the plug location and violating code. I prefer to follow code but having some building trade background I know there are also some cost benefit analysis that occurs at times. (This is not meant to question all codes benefits).

2) Is it considered accessible (via removing the drawer) in regards to a junction box if I have to go the route of extending the line 18" over (as originally planned)? From my research I thought it might be. For that matter, can aluminum wire be extended by code. I know 3 wire can not.

3) You say more than likely not tinned copper. So is there still the possibility of being stranded aluminum (The ground is shiny as you can see in the pictures)?

Like I mentioned above, if confirmed as aluminum strand an electrician will handle, too much liability and ignorance on my part. Running a new wire would be the best but obviously incurs substantial additional costs.

Thanks for the instructive comments.
 
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Old 04-01-15, 06:04 PM
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Ray2047,

No, going off ibpooks suggestion, leave the plug as is (which would put it behind a new cabinet with the range slid over 18"). Use a longer whip to plug into original outlet. Make this box accessible either through the new cabinet (via removing a drawer or via sidewall of new cabinet (non visible hack job)).

Hopefully getting clarification of whether its allowable to do this.

Sorry, I should have put in original post...The range in being moved over 18" to the left. Taking place of this 18" gap will be a new base cabinet. The original outlet would then be approx center of this 18" cabinet.

See pic, (sorry for the floor, you can guess why this is being remodeled )
Slide Range 18" to left, insert new base cabinet.Name:  20140301_170237.jpg
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Old 04-01-15, 06:37 PM
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Put an extension ring on the receptacle box so it is in the cabinet. The receptacle plate will hide the hole and make for a neat professional install. You may need to reduce the depth of the draw slightly. If the cabinet has a floor the receptacle may need to be raise slightly.
 
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Old 04-02-15, 07:59 AM
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Ahh, I didn't understand the situation that the current range location was being replaced with a cabinet which would block the receptacle. You should extend the receptacle to the new range location.

If you have a basement or crawl under the kitchen you could pull the cable back into that space and make the splice there. That would prevent you from cutting up the cabinet to provide access to the junction box. Otherwise, just make sure to use connectors rated for aluminum of the proper gauge. Polaris brand is one, but there are others out there.
 
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Old 04-02-15, 09:24 AM
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Any one have any experience with putting a range plug behind a cabinet and the issues it might create?
I was just wondering why you would want to do this at all? Why can't the receptacle be behind the range?
Tumble

The range is being shifted over approx 18". Where it is now will be a cabinet.
I still don't understand the problem. When the cabinets are being replaced moving the range space 18" to the left, move the receptacle to the new space so it will be behind the range, again. Maybe I am missing something, but this seems pretty simple to me and a non-issue.
 
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Old 04-02-15, 06:02 PM
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Well, the original post was concerned with whether I had aluminum wiring. If yes, then an electrician gets some money from me. My plan all along was to move the outlet.

A suggestion was made about making the plug longer to reach the old outlet, and then the conversation went into the logistics of this. Obviously since leaving the plug where it is is more economical only if it is allowable and meets code. I am getting the feeling that this not something one should do (based upon every ones discussion).

So back to the original intent of the post. Since it looks to be aluminum wiring (and that will be confirmed prior to anything) I will have a licensed electrician do the connections.

So if I may ask some followup questions...

1) So as to prevent any issues with "access" to the junction box (behind a cabinet etc...) my plan now will be to open up the wall. The incoming wire comes down from the ceiling (not floor, concrete). Make a 90 degree bend in the wire about 2 feet up to allow enough wire to traverse the 18" to the left. Install Junction box. Have electrician install extension from junction box down to new outlet (which is now in middle of relocated range and at appropriate location).

2) Does this sound like a plan???

3) If so, is the junction box 2 feet up the wall behind the stove considered "accessible" to allow this.

Thanks for reading....
 
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Old 04-02-15, 06:16 PM
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is the junction box 2 feet up the wall behind the stove considered "accessible" to allow this.
Yes. You don't need an electrician for this. Old school splice would be made with split bolts that have a spacer so the added copper doesn't touch the aluminum wire, Polaris or AlumiConn connectors are the modern way. Split bolts may be cheapest. You need a 4x4 box minimum.
 
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Old 04-02-15, 07:23 PM
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Old school splice would be made with split bolts that have a spacer so the added copper doesn't touch the aluminum wire, Polaris or AlumiConn connectors are the modern way.
Polaris makes a great and simple to install insulated connector that requires no taping and Ilsco makes a similar one that I really like. Ray, if you remember, AlumiConn connectors don't accept wire larger than a #10. The split bolts with the separator are the least expensive option, but take more time and some expertise. If you are paying electrician labor rates, the Polaris is probably the most cost effective way to go and you can even install them yourself.
 
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Old 04-02-15, 07:41 PM
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I would use a deep 11b box to make the splice. They are 4 11/16 square.
 
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Old 04-02-15, 08:23 PM
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Ray, if you remember, AlumiConn connectors don't accept wire larger than a #10.
Thanks for the correction.
 
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Old 04-02-15, 11:39 PM
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Did some quick research, looks like I'll need at least a 47 cub inch box (5/wire*8wire)+7/(ballpark for the connectors based upon their specs) if I read Article 314.16 correct (I love the internet). The 11b specs I found says 42 cub inch. I found a 4X4X3.5 which is 56. Would this be better? I like the wider dimensions of the 11B box, seems it would be easier to work in. Do they make a wider box than an 11B, since it's going to be behind the stove not to concerned with the size of the cover plate.

The Polaris connector I would need looks like it would be the ITO-4 (1 line from the top and one line from the bottom of the box).

While cost is always a concern, being able to do it myself is much more convenient. Reading about the Polaris connections looks like it's well within my skill level as it fixes the one issue I had concern about (cu/al).

All, I really appreciate the info you've given/will give me.



Update: Found a blank cover that adds 10 cub inch to an 11B. I'm guessing this would be the way to go?
 
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Old 04-02-15, 11:58 PM
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Since you are going to open the wall anyway (and patch will be hidden) use EMT and THHN between the splice box and the receptacle box. That way the ground wire can be terminated at the splice box and only three wires need to be spliced. At the receptacle box you'd just use a #10 jumper to the receptacle ground. Using this calculator I come out with 21 cubic inches. That is based on six #8 spliced, one #10 terminated, no pass through, no loops, no internal clamps, no devices, no hickeys. See: http://www.constructionmonkey.com/ca...trical/boxfill
 

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Old 04-03-15, 09:09 AM
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That sounds even more professional. Cool. Will still probably use the 11B box (without the buffered faceplate). I like having more room to work in than less.

Any special precautions I need to take terminating the aluminum ground wire to the steel j-box?
 
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Old 04-03-15, 10:37 AM
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Since it isn't current carrying I'd just use anti-oxidant compound but the pros will have to have the final word on that question.
 
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Old 04-03-15, 12:22 PM
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I often use a lug like this when connecting large-ish ground wires to a box. There are many many permutations of lugs available.

 
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Old 04-03-15, 02:57 PM
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Ben, would the lug count when figuring box fill?
 
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Old 04-03-15, 05:16 PM
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Lug and wire nuts do not count towards box fill under the NEC. The CEC counts wire nuts.
 
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Old 10-13-15, 04:55 PM
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Going to be starting remodel soon. After researching a little more (including this board) some have expressed concern on non electricians not making up the conduit correctly and risking loosing the ground. I am wondering if the attached drawing is acceptable?

The only connections I would have to be concerned with is the Polaris accessories (which I would be using either way, albeit with one additional). This seems much simpler operation than making up the conduit. I only need about 18" extra wire. Still looks like it is below the box fill calc.

Are using the clamps okay with 8-3 and 6-3? The outer sheathing would remain, the wires would not be split outside the box (just to clarify the drawing).

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PS. Not sure if original wire is 8-3, it might be 6-3, I didn't think 8-3 was allowed with 50 amps in romex. Am I correct in this?
 
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Old 10-13-15, 05:05 PM
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You can get NM in either size.

Since your feed may be 8-3..... that is what determines the circuit ampacity. Technically 8-3 is rated for 45A although I've seen it on a 50A breaker.

You seem to be extending the NM cable with a splice box. That is ok. You will also need a bonding jumper from your bare wire splice to the box if it's metal. Can be #12 wire.

The Polaris bugs are a tad pricey but well worth it. No taping involved.
 
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Old 10-13-15, 05:33 PM
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Copy that a metal box needs to be grounded even if not using conduit as a ground path. I believe the Polaris can handle the extra wire. I think I read earlier the suggestion to use #10 for the bonding? Would I also need to bond the receptacle box at the end of the 18" extension?

Just to be on safe side would you recommend using 6-3 for the additional 18"?

The scheduling/ability to do it myself is well worth that the extra price.

One additional question; the KO and clamp is 1 1/4". Are there any rules for clamp size in regards to NM wire (I obviously can get a box with the appropriate KO and clamps)

Note: As far as I can tell Hawaii uses the 2008 NEC
 
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Old 10-13-15, 06:07 PM
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I don't see conduit in your drawing. I see tinned copper wire romex and new romex.

A 1-1/4" connector may be a little large. You'll need to see what fits best with your cable.
A 1" connector may be the choice.
 
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Old 10-13-15, 06:33 PM
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Affirm, no conduit. You stated I needed to bond the metal box. I was just confirming that this needs to be done regardless as to whether the box is being used as a ground path via conduit to another box as mentioned by Ray2047
 
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Old 10-13-15, 07:22 PM
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Yes... anything metal.... like a junction box... needs to be bonded to ground in case of internal shorts.
 
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Old 06-22-16, 06:02 PM
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Meant to post this a while back.

Learned a lot from this thread. Made all the plans, bought the materials.

When I opened the wall, I found the wire had been run differently than expected. Instead of splicing, all I had to do was bend the wire the opposite direction, run it through the 2X4 it was attached to and into the new box location. Didn't even need to cut the wire, it was the perfect length. Slapped a little Noalox on it and connected it to a new receptacle.

5 Minute job....Sat back and chuckled.
 
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Old 06-22-16, 06:53 PM
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As they say, "may the luck be with you". Thanks for letting us know.
 
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Old 06-23-16, 03:06 PM
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Looks like Karma smiled on you! :-)
 
 

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