Kitchen Remodel Wiring


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Old 04-29-15, 01:29 PM
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Kitchen Remodel Wiring

Here is the plan:

1. 48" stove dedicated on 50amp/240v
2. 48" fridge (10amps) and 3 outlets (pantry room) on 15amp
3. 48" hood (9amps) and 8 inside cabinets lights (puck) on 15amp
4. dishwasher (1300w, 12amps) dedicated on 15amp
5. main sink disposal (7amps) dedicated on 15amp
6. under cabinet microwave on island (1000w,14.5aamps) dedicated on 20amp
7. island sink disposal (7amps) and 4-5 GFCI (on island) outlets on 15amp
8. under cabinet lights (13 ft of rope light @12.2w/3.3ft) and recessed lights (12 led - 12w each) on 20amp
9. 7 GFCI outlets on a dedicated 20amp

Questions:

Do I need to split Anything?
Can I Combine 4 and 5 and switch to 20amp breaker?
Can I combine 6 and 7?
Is 20amp enough for #8?

Thank you!!!!
 
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Old 04-29-15, 01:38 PM
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Both small appliance receptacle circuits(you must have 2) must be GFCI protected and of 20 amps in size. I would not put that refrigerator on a 15 amp circuit. Motor start up may cause it to trip. Make it a 20 amp dedicated circuit, as well as the pantry receptacles on a 15 amp. Your island receptacle(s) will need to be part of the GFCI protected 20 amp small appliance circuits, or on a dedicated one by itself.

#8 can be reduced to 15 amp and 14 gauge wiring.
 
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Old 04-29-15, 01:41 PM
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right #4,5,6,7 all GFCI.

i don't have any more circuits, i can switch #2 and #8, but i cant split #2... what are the risks?
 
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Old 04-29-15, 01:51 PM
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While the NEC requires two Small Appliance Branch Circuits (SABCs) I think that is woefully inadequate and I would use either three or four such circuits.

Receptacles in pantries are specifically stated as being part of the required SABCs, as such they need to be wired with #12 and on a 20 ampere circuit.

I don't know for certain but I don't think that hard-wired appliances (dishwasher, garbage grinder, need to have GFCI protection. On the other hand, it certainly won't hurt to include it.
 
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Old 04-29-15, 01:55 PM
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Update:

1 48" stove dedicated on 50amp/240v
2 48" fridge (10amps) and 1 outlets (pantry room) and 1 GFCI in Kitchen on 20amp
3 48" hood (9amps) and 8 inside cabinets lights (puck 4.4w each, 35.2w total) on 20amp
4 dishwasher (1300w, 12amps) dedicated on 15amp
5 main sink disposal (7amps) dedicated on 15amp
6 under cabinet microwave on island (1000w,14.5aamps) dedicated on 15amp
7 island sink disposal (7amps) and 4-5 GFCI (on island) outlets on 20amp
8 undercabinet lights (13 feet of rope light @12.2w/3.3ft = 48.06w) and recessed lights (12 led - 12w each = 144w) on 20amp == 192.1 TOTAL WATT)
9 7 GFCI outlets on a dedicated 20amp
 
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Old 04-29-15, 01:56 PM
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Depending on the pantry's location. Adjacent to the countertops, I'd concur, but I was picturing a separate room dislocated from the kitchen (old school). Also it will depend on your panel as to whether you can use tandem breakers, freeing up a slot with a slot, so to speak. Tell us the brand and model of your panel or look on the door to see if it will accept tandem breakers and where they can be located on the busses.
 
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Old 04-29-15, 01:59 PM
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i am unable to wire any new circuits, its will be just too complicated.

I currently have 4-20amp and 4-15amp for my whole kitchen and adjacent pantry.
 
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Old 04-29-15, 02:02 PM
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BTW, the pantry is a separate room next to the kitchen with a separate entrance separated by a 4.5" wall.
 
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Old 04-29-15, 02:51 PM
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Depending on the pantry's location.
And...
BTW, the pantry is a separate room next to the kitchen with a separate entrance separated by a 4.5" wall.
Doesn't matter. Article 210.52 is clear that receptacles in kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms and dining rooms be part of a Small Appliance Branch Circuit.

The reasoning is that in all these locations there could be a refrigerator, a coffee pot, a toaster, a roaster or other such cooking appliance.
 
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Old 04-29-15, 05:50 PM
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The appliances like the DW and GD should not share circuits with the receptacles.
 
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Old 04-30-15, 05:23 AM
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pcboss,

so are you saying i need 3 circuits to the island, 1 for MW, 1 for GD, and 1 for 4 GFCI outlets?

seems a bit overdone, no...
 
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Old 04-30-15, 05:45 AM
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furd,

can you explain.. are you saying I need to have a separate circuit for 1 receptable in pantry?!!?
 
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Old 04-30-15, 09:00 AM
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Dishwasher wiring

Can i Put a DW (1300w,12amp) on a circuit that was used before as a stove hood vent (the one that comes out of a counter top). it also has a 120v outlet attached for the gas range. The circuit is using 2 connected breakers (total 30amp).

Can i modify it somehow to use for my DW?

Thanks in advance.
 
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Old 04-30-15, 09:27 AM
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This is a little advanced wiring.
Can you explain what wires you have at the box where power comes from the panel.
Do you have:
1 black
1 red
1 white
Bare Ground?

If so, you can run 2 each 120V circuits from this box and change the breaker to a double pole.

Post a picture if you can.
 

Last edited by pcboss; 04-30-15 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 04-30-15, 10:26 AM
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The circuit is using 2 connected breakers (total 30amp).
If each breaker is 15a then that is what it is, 15a. You don't add the breakers. To expand on Brian's question are the handles tied together?
 
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Old 04-30-15, 10:49 AM
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It doesn't need to be a separate circuit, but it does need to be part of one of the two required small appliance branch circuits. It could be part of the circuit supplying power to the island or the counter top receptacles.
 
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Old 04-30-15, 11:19 AM
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At least two circuits for the island. One receptacle and one for the GD. The microwave can be powered by one of the 20 amp small appliance circuits, unless the instructions call for a dedicated circuit.

This is one area the code is too lenient IMO.
 
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Old 04-30-15, 11:21 AM
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Sounds good, what can i connect a 48" hood that draws 9amps to?
 
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Old 04-30-15, 11:25 AM
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what about 4 GFCI Outlets on the island, can i attach that to the DW or the GD line?
 
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Old 04-30-15, 11:31 AM
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what about 4 GFCI Outlets on the island, can i attach that to the DW or the GD line?
No. Those would be SABC circuits. The DW and GD can't be on the SABCs.
 
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Old 04-30-15, 11:36 AM
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my fault.. not DW.

On The Island:

I have a MW, GD and 3 GFCI outlets.. I have 2 dedicated circuits available(15amp and 20amp).. can i use them or do i need another 15amp for a total of 3?


an addition question, not on the island... I have a 9amp range hood, what can i connect that to? do i need separate circuit? i have a 20 amp circuit avail that has 3 GFCI on it.. can i use it?
 
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Old 04-30-15, 12:42 PM
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I have a MW, GD and 3 GFCI outlets.. I have 2 dedicated circuits available(15amp and 20amp).. can i use them or do i need another 15amp for a total of 3
Not sure what a MW is but only receptacles can be on a SABC and the SABC must be 20 amp. You haven't stated the amperage of the MW and GD so can't say if 14 amps is enough. It can't be the SABCs.
I have a 9amp range hood, what can i connect that to
At 9 amps your running into the limits of the 50% rule for what can be on a fixed in place appliance circuit. If amperage of the appliance is more then 50% of the circuit nothing else can be on it.
 
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Old 04-30-15, 12:55 PM
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MW = microwave (14.5amp)
GD = (7amps)

So i need a third circuit on island either dedicated or SABC for the 3 GFCI.


And for the hood...9amps cant go on 20amp because its more than 80% of 20?

regarding my DW:

Can i somehow modify a dedicated circuit (30amp from gas range pullout vent) for my dishwasher (12amp)? there is a 120v outlet attached to the 30amp for the gas range.. or do i need to run another line?
 
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Old 04-30-15, 01:28 PM
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Ok, the handles are tied together (already double pole??), with 30 amps written twice on handle.
Red wire coming into one part of it, black into the other part of it. there is a white and bare as well i'm assuming.

There is a 120v outlet attached under the gas stove...i'm thinking 120v for the pilot lights and 120v for the vent.

How can I convert this my 120v dishwasher somehow?
 
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Old 04-30-15, 01:52 PM
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You will need to change the breaker to a 2 pole 15 or 20.

You will need to find where the cable runs. Once you can tell us that more information can be given. Basically you will run from where the cable splits into the two circuits to the DW and install a receptacle in the cabinet next to the DW.
 
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Old 04-30-15, 01:57 PM
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The hood cannot go on the 20 amp small appliance circuit due to code rules that those serve only receptacle loads. The hood is fixed in place.

Island circuits: 1 MW, 1 20 amp for receptacles with gfi protection, 1 for GD.

I have never seen a gas range that needed 30 amps. Normally they only need power for the clock and the ignitor.
 
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Old 04-30-15, 02:02 PM
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I have a gas range with a vent behind it that pops up when you press a button.

The range I can see plugs into a 120V under the cabinet. I'm assuming the vent is 120v, but its a direct connection.

I just need 120V for the DW, what can I do?
 
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Old 04-30-15, 02:05 PM
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seems like we have 2 threads about the same thing.
 
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Old 04-30-15, 02:08 PM
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I have a gas range with a vent behind it that pops up when you press a button.

The range I can see plugs into a 120V under the cabinet. I'm assuming the vent is 120v, but its a direct connection.

I just need 120V for the DW, what can I do?

From Previous Post:

I don't get it.. please explain...the hood plugs into a receptacle?
 
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Old 04-30-15, 02:09 PM
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The DW could share a 20 amp circuit with the GD.
 
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Old 04-30-15, 02:23 PM
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my GD is 15amp

what can i do?
 
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Old 04-30-15, 02:38 PM
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Run a new individual circuit for the DW.
 
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Old 04-30-15, 02:38 PM
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I don't get it.. please explain...the hood plugs into a receptacle?
Yes but you are up against the 50% rule as I explained earlier. If a fixed in place appliance uses more then 50% of the amperage on the circuit it must be a dedicated circuit. At 9 amps it just doesn't make sense to plug it into a SABC. Better to have its own dedicated 15 amp circuit.
my GD is 15amp
I doubt it draws 15 amps but if it does it must be on a 20 amp dedicated circuit.

You need to bite the bullet here. You have lots of high amp appliances that are going to need their own circuits. No way around it.
 
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Old 04-30-15, 02:44 PM
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Understood about hood. will put in its own.

about the GB, its on a 15amp circuit.. so I cant add the DW on it.

I need to use the 30amp double pole, and split it so I can hook it up to the DW and hood.

I would like to use the same wire from stove vent, the DW will be in the stove's place.. but I only need 15amp, 120V for the DW.

I can actually use the other 15amp, 120V for the hood, but i need to extend it. finished basement ;(

how do i split the panel and the wire on the other end?
 
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Old 04-30-15, 02:45 PM
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seems like we have 2 threads about the same thing.
I have merged the two threads.
 
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Old 04-30-15, 02:49 PM
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I need to use the 30amp double pole, and split it so I can hook it up to the DW.
120v receptacles are generally limited to 20 amps so by code it can't be a 30 amp breaker. I doubt the cable is more then #12 and that limits it to 20 amps. If it is #14 that limits to 15 amps.

The 30 amp breaker is almost certainly a fire hazard that needs to be removed and should never have been used.

Information: There are few residential devices that are120v/30a. If they do need a 30 amp feed they are used on 30 amp circuits fed by #10 minimum and require special receptacles and plugs. These plugs and receptacles are different from and not comparable with 120 volt 15a and 20a receptacles and plugs. Devices intended for general purpose 15a and 20a 120 volt circuits should never be used on 30 amp circuits. You have nothing that should be on a 30 amp circuit.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 04-30-15 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 04-30-15, 04:52 PM
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This is confusing because of all the code requirements discussed. I think you understand that and forget it for now.

It sounds to me like you previously had a gas cook top with telescoping (electric) downdraft vent, and want to change it to a freestanding gas range.

Many homes were set up to accommodate both gas and electric cook tops, or ranges, ovens, whatever.

IF you have a junction box in the area of old cook top, containing 10/3 with ground (most likely), wired to a double pole 30amp breaker, post back for instructions on how to convert this into 2 each 120V circuits.

Very simple and having wiring like this nearby has saved me many times.

See post 25.
 
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Old 04-30-15, 05:59 PM
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I will try to post some pics. The house was build (1989) with the gas cook top and downdraft vent.. exactly.

Now i want to change to freestanding range, but its 10 feet away and its all wired, I'm good with that.

Where the old gas cooktop was, now will be a DW and I dont have a dedicated 120v line there. I can either run a new one (about 80ft through finished basement, or use the old cook top connection).

I checked under the cook top and i don't see where line comes in from the floor (I will be removing that part soon).... but I do see a line from the bottom of the vent to a 120v receptacle. and the wire looks thin, probably 12 or even 14. There is power cord for the gas cooktop that plugs into this 120v for lighting the burners.

BTW... On the downdraft vent sticker.. its says 120v!

The only way this receptacle turns OFF on the main panel is when i turn OFF the 30amp double connected breaker. i dont see anything else connected to the 30amp anywhere in the house.

can i break the 30amp into 2 15amp or 20amp.. will that depend on the wire size?

go figure...
 
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Old 04-30-15, 06:34 PM
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can i break the 30amp into 2 15amp or 20amp.
As Brian wrote:
IF you have a junction box in the area of old cook top, containing 10/3 with ground (most likely), wired to a double pole 30amp breaker, post back for instructions on how to convert this into 2 each 120V circuits.
.
 
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Old 04-30-15, 07:00 PM
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This is confusing because of all the code requirements discussed.
And yet we have no idea what code the OP must follow. IF the OP's AHJ is under the 2014 code, much of what has been discussed could be different because of additional GFCI and AFCI requirements.
 
 

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