Installing a receptacle inside a cabinet

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  #41  
Old 06-02-15, 04:12 PM
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Does a nipple go by some other name at stores? I picked up the panel at HD today and looked down the aisle for anything labeled as a nipple but didn't find anything.
 
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  #42  
Old 06-02-15, 04:28 PM
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No, a nipple is a nipple. Just be sure they don't send you to the plumbing department. You want a conduit nipple. They are different.

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The first is the one you should use but if there are alignment issues you can use an off set:

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  #43  
Old 06-02-15, 06:54 PM
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Ok, thanks for the info! The existing board is 1/2" plywood, so I picked up a 2x4 sheet of that today for the sub panel. Had to troubleshoot some mower issues tonight, so mounting the board and sub panel has been pushed back to tomorrow. I'll look for a nipple, bushings, and lock nuts tomorrow when I'm in town.

What's the next couple of steps after I get the panel mounted? Identify the lesser-used existing circuits to be moved, then what? Will I need to buy new breakers for the ones being moved, or do I just transfer over the existing breakers?
 
  #44  
Old 06-02-15, 08:22 PM
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Breakers are not usually transferable between brands. They might fit but if the panel isn't rated for them by code they can't be used. If you haven't bought a panel yet you could look for one to match your existing panel if it isn't obsolete.
 
  #45  
Old 06-03-15, 08:31 PM
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The sub panel has been mounted.
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None of the knockout holes lined up between the two panels so I had to use an offset nipple. Question: it's a 1/2" offset nipple - is that the right size?

You can use a nipple between panels with 4 locknuts to adjust the distance. Two will be between the panels and the other two are inside the panel.
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you will need bushings on the nipples.
The only bushings I found in this section of the store were these plastic ones. They fit the nipple when it's not installed, but once it's in place between the two panels with the lock nuts, there aren't enough threads left for the bushing to grab onto.
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I've identified 3 lesser-used circuits to be moved so far. Circuits 9, 11, and 17, identified with yellow arrows or dots in the pictures below.
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They're each 15 amp circuits, so I'll need to buy 3 new 15 amp breakers for this panel. Once I have the breakers, what are my next steps?
 
  #46  
Old 06-03-15, 09:20 PM
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You will need to install a 60 amp 240 breaker in the existing panel and run two #6 black to the lugs on the new panel, one #6 white to the neutral bar of the new panel, and one #10 green to the ground bar of the new panel.

The green wire is optional but often recommended. You do not install the bonding screw on the neutral bar.

If the circuits you move are not long enough they can be extended to the new box with wire nuts and THHN wire.
 
  #47  
Old 06-04-15, 04:56 AM
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Nipple

Not trying to hijack thread. Just making an observation:

The only bushings I found in this section of the store were these plastic ones. They fit the nipple when it's not installed, but once it's in place between the two panels with the lock nuts, there aren't enough threads left for the bushing to grab onto.
You do not need the locking nuts on the outside of the panel. The nipple has a shoulder to catch the edge of the hole in the panel. Without the outside nut, the inside nut should tighten down enough to expose threads to hold the plastic bushing.
 
  #48  
Old 06-04-15, 05:56 AM
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I would have installed a larger nipple. Also the plastic bushing won't hurt, but are not required on conduits that small.
 
  #49  
Old 06-04-15, 08:36 AM
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Missed the picture. Most of my comments were based on a 1"-1" straight nipple. As has been pointed out off set nipples are different. I probably confused the issue by posting pictures of both types. Are you sure you can fit all the wires through that one small nipple?
 
  #50  
Old 06-04-15, 11:58 AM
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Are you sure you can fit all the wires through that one small nipple?
Not at all sure now that I've picked up the wire. The nipple will have three #6 wires and one #10 wire going through it, correct? Except in my case I have four #6 wires because I got sidetracked at the store and asked for a length of 6 gauge green wire, rather than 10 gauge for the green. (Silly question: #6 = 6 gauge; #10 = 10 gauge; etc. - correct?) I bought a 1" offset nipple so hopefully that will be large enough for the four #6.

The PK15GTA ground bar that came with this panel offers two different methods for securing it to the panel - first option is to mount it with one screw; second option is to mount it with two screws. It came with two screws. Does it matter whether I use one or both screws?
 
  #51  
Old 06-04-15, 01:15 PM
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But you need room for the wires you are moving also. 1" is good for the #6 but you may need to add for the others. Did you say you already have a 240 space in the panel? if not you are going to need to move four 120 breakers. (Oven and subpanel breaker.) I'd suggest a second 1" nipple to the right of the first. Not recommended because of difficulty but there is also plan "B" below.

Plan "B"
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Last edited by ray2047; 06-04-15 at 01:36 PM.
  #52  
Old 06-04-15, 02:00 PM
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But you need room for the wires you are moving also.
That's what I get for not thinking this through clearly enough. For some reason I was thinking that the wires from the circuits being moved would go through a different set of knockouts and would be "exposed" (not inside a nipple) in between the panels, similar to the cables in the main panel that feed through the top of the panel. Those are complete 12-2 cables though, which is the part I was missing, because the wires from the breakers I'm moving will be individual wires, not a package of cables.

There are around 5 knockout sizes in the center right there. One of them looks to be 1 1/2". There's also an unused 1" knockout in the back right corner of the box, so I think I'll just add a 1" offset nipple.

Ok, so I'm moving existing circuits 9 and 11, which will free up the space for the 60amp breaker for the sub panel. I need to find two additional circuits next to each other to move to make room for the wall oven circuit. I think circuits 15 and 17 seem to be the best candidates for that. 15 is a 20 amp circuit hosting the washing machine and sump pump. Hardly a lesser-used circuit. 17 has a few basement receptacles plus one kitchen receptacle. Any concerns with moving these two to the sub panel?

Circuit 9 currently just has two (possibly three) dining room receptacles. Dining room is actually going to be combined with the kitchen before all is said and done. The wall between the two is coming down. Should I convert that to 20 amp GFCI when I move it? It's wired with 12-2 wire with #16 or #18 ground.

If no concerns with the above, then the sub panel will now have:
-Three 15 amp circuits
-Two 20 amp GFCI circuits (the current dining room circuit, plus the new kitchen circuit to be added)

Combined total amps of all breakers is 85, which is greater than the 60 amps I'm routing from the main panel, but I'm assuming that's not an issue, just the same as how total amps of all breakers in the main panel is well over 100, but main breaker is only 100 amps. Presumably this works because circuits aren't all maxed out at the same time.

Just realized I need to get a battery operated light, because I'll want to shut the main breaker off before I start on this.
 

Last edited by jessman1128; 06-04-15 at 02:11 PM. Reason: Adding details about knockout sizes in main panel
  #53  
Old 06-04-15, 02:59 PM
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There are around 5 knockout sizes in the center right there. One of them looks to be 1 1/2". There's also an unused 1" knockout in the back right corner of the box, so I think I'll just add a 1" offset nipple.
Sounds like a good solution. Just in case you missed it you only need to extend the black and white, The grounds can stay where they are. You use individual wires (THHN/THWN) to extend them.
Combined total amps of all breakers is 85, which is greater than the 60 amps I'm routing from the main panel, but I'm assuming that's not an issue, just the same as how total amps of all breakers in the main panel is well over 100, but main breaker is only 100 amps. Presumably this works because circuits aren't all maxed out at the same time.
That is correct.
 
  #54  
Old 06-04-15, 03:22 PM
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I don't know how much electrical work you plan to do in the future, but I recommend getting a uni bit/step bit for drilling holes in boxes and panels.
http://www.amazon.com/Neiko-10194A-T...3463024&sr=1-1
Drill holes as big as you need right where you need them.

I would have installed a larger nipple. Also the plastic bushing won't hurt, but are not required on conduits that small.
boss,
I'm not going to argue with a guy who works with a code book that I don't, but in the NEC are use of bushings based on conduit size or wire size? We have to bush anything containing #6 or larger.
 

Last edited by Mr.Awesome; 06-04-15 at 05:11 PM.
  #55  
Old 06-04-15, 04:19 PM
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The NEC bases it on conductor size or if a sharp edge exists. Ours is #4 or larger iirc.
 
  #56  
Old 06-04-15, 04:59 PM
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Bad link Mr. Awesome. Also Mr. Awesome, am I correct north of the boarder you can't splice wires inside the panel?
 
  #57  
Old 06-04-15, 05:09 PM
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No joints and no using it as a raceway. But you can joint a longer piece of wire onto and existing one if you need to extend it to reach a breaker/bar.

Fixed link.
 
  #58  
Old 06-04-15, 07:13 PM
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Just in case you missed it you only need to extend the black and white, The grounds can stay where they are. You use individual wires (THHN/THWN) to extend them.
Thank you for this. I was pretty sure only the blacks and whites needed to be extended, but when at the store today I picked up some red and green THHN as well just to be safe. Glad I'll be able to return those.

I don't know how much electrical work you plan to do in the future, but I recommend getting a uni bit/step bit for drilling holes in boxes and panels.
I don't plan on any significant work in electrical boxes/panels in the future once this kitchen project is done, but I really like the idea of that bit that you linked to.
 
  #59  
Old 06-04-15, 08:54 PM
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You will need to install a 60 amp 240 breaker in the existing panel and run two #6 black to the lugs on the new panel, one #6 white to the neutral bar of the new panel, and one #10 green to the ground bar of the new panel.

The green wire is optional but often recommended. You do not install the bonding screw on the neutral bar.
There's a pic of the sub panel below with various colored arrows. Please refer to pic when reading questions below.

Questions:
-Are the two yellow arrows pointing to the lugs on the new panel?
-Is the green arrow pointing to the correct location for installing the ground bar?
-I should remove the green screw that is currently sitting loose on what I believe to be the ground bar location?
-Where is the neutral bar? Is it one of the four bars identified with orange, purple, blue, and red arrows?

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  #60  
Old 06-04-15, 09:27 PM
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Are the two yellow arrows pointing to the lugs on the new panel?
Yes.
Is the green arrow pointing to the correct location for installing the ground bar?
No, that is the bonding screw for the neutral bars. It is removed.
Where is the neutral bar? Is it one of the four bars identified with orange, purple, blue, and red arrows?
All are neutral bars.

Not enough detail in the photo for me to see the threaded 10-32 ground bar holes. Just find two pre-drilled holes that match the mounting holes in the ground bar.

What does the tag under the green arrow say?

Above is my best guess without reading the instructions that came with your panel.
 
  #61  
Old 06-05-15, 02:25 AM
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A Square D panel has raised bumps for the ground bar to install over.
 
  #62  
Old 06-05-15, 06:48 AM
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A Square D panel has raised bumps for the ground bar to install over.
Thanks. Closer examination of the panel yielded three ground bar location options, each one identified with an electrical ground symbol stamped next to it.

What does the tag under the green arrow say?
When it is required to bond the box to neutral, use screw on this card. Insert through hole in neutral bar and thread into hole in the box.
 
  #63  
Old 06-05-15, 06:57 AM
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Is this the correct GFCI breaker for this box? It's the only one they had at my closest big box store.
 
  #64  
Old 06-05-15, 08:04 AM
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For the kitchen you usually only need a GFCI. That would probably be cheaper. There should be a list of approved breakers on a label in your panel. If it lists QO then the breaker is correct.
 
  #65  
Old 06-05-15, 09:54 AM
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The 15 amp breakers that I removed from the main panel are labeled as Square D QO breakers. Any reason to not re use them in the subpanel? They're likely from the late 60's when the house was originally built. I've purchased new ones but wouldn't mind saving the cost of those.
 
  #66  
Old 06-05-15, 10:02 AM
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As said if the box label says QO you can use them. Age isn't a factor if they work and aren't corroded are burnt.
 
  #67  
Old 06-05-15, 11:18 AM
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Where do the black, white, and green connect on the 60 amp breaker going into the main panel? I only see two connection points on the breaker. One black to each breaker connection point, and the white and green to the neutral/ground bus bar of the main panel?
 
  #68  
Old 06-05-15, 11:42 AM
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One black wire to each terminal of the breaker. If your existing breaker box doesn't have a ground bar green and white to the neutral bar.

Edit:
For the kitchen you usually only need a GFCI. That would probably be cheaper.
Cheapest would be to just use a regular beaker and use a GFCI receptacle as the first device then run the rest off the load side.
 
  #69  
Old 06-05-15, 02:23 PM
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Thanks for all the advice! I moved the two breakers and wired the subpanel today. No issues noticed since turning the power back on. Anything I should test (besides verifying power on the two moved circuits) to verify proper wiring? I'll post some pics later tonight so you can look at the modified setup. I had to replace one of the breakers being moved because it's connection screw threads were stripped.

I didn't know you could wire a GFCI circuit with a regular breaker. That would definitely be cheaper!
 
  #70  
Old 06-05-15, 04:29 PM
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Sounds like you are making good progress. Good job!
I didn't know you could wire a GFCI circuit with a regular breaker. That would definitely be cheaper!
That is why it is often done that way. If you need more info or have questions about that just ask.
 
  #71  
Old 06-05-15, 05:13 PM
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Next step is to run the new kitchen circuit. My plan right now is to run 12-2 wire from the breaker to the stovetop location, with a junction box in the basement underneath roughly where the island will be. The breaker will feed the junction box, and then I'll connect from the junction box to the stovetop location. Once I'm ready to wire for the island I'll reroute the power leaving the junction box up to the island and then have the last receptacle on the island feed the stovetop. Let me know if that's not a good plan please.

For running the wire in the basement, is running it through the joists preferable to underneath the joists? Most of the existing runs are though the joists but the dishwasher circuit is underneath the joists.
 
  #72  
Old 06-05-15, 06:04 PM
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I'll connect from the junction box to the stovetop location. Once I'm ready to wire for the island I'll reroute the power leaving the junction box up to the island and then have the last receptacle on the island feed the stovetop
Sounds good as a temp location only. The first receptacle is where the GFCI is so moving to a more accessible location when you can is a good plan.
is running it through the joists preferable to underneath the joists? -
If you ever put in a ceiling through is better.
 
  #73  
Old 06-05-15, 08:48 PM
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The first receptacle is where the GFCI is so moving to a more accessible location when you can is a good plan.
Any issues with leaving some extra cable coiled up before the junction box, thereby allowing the junction box feed to extend up into the island once the time is right?

Here are some pics of the work accomplished today. Let me know if you spot anything concerning.

Only one of the two moved circuits needed their wire runs extended to reach the sub panel. Here's the neutral connection inside the main panel in the center of the picture.
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And here's the positive connection inside the main panel.
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60 amp breaker connections.
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Connecting the sub panel neutral and ground to the main panel was the most difficult part for me. You can kind of see the neutral and ground connections in these next two pics. I've drawn arrows to where they are.
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And then a crooked overview of the sub panel, followed by some closer shots of the sub panel connections.
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  #74  
Old 06-05-15, 09:30 PM
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Any issues with leaving some extra cable coiled up before the junction box, thereby allowing the junction box feed to extend up into the island once the time is right?
No.

You seem to have multiple neutrals in the same hole. That isn't allowed. You can't have two neutrals in the same hole. You can have two grounds but you also seem to have one place where you have grounds and neutral in the same hole. That is not allowed.

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  #75  
Old 06-06-15, 08:37 AM
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You seem to have multiple neutrals in the same hole. That isn't allowed. You can't have two neutrals in the same hole. You can have two grounds but you also seem to have one place where you have grounds and neutral in the same hole. That is not allowed.
It's been incorrect for a long time then, because those conditions were all present before I touched anything in the box. In fact, it appears that some of the circuits have their neutral and ground in the same hole.

One neutral per hole, and grounds can be combined in their own hole. I might be short on holes in that case. Quick count just now yielded 19 neutrals and 18 grounds (presumably I missed one in the densely packed mass of wires) and only 15 holes. The bar is arranged like a stair step; all the wires I can see are on the bottom two steps, but it appears there might be a third step up higher in the back that is currently unused.

Regarding the red wire, I'm hoping you can shed some light on it and suggest what I should do with it. It's from the circuit that feeds the garage receptacles and lights. It's 12-3 wire, and the white, red, and ground all route to the same bus bar hole. The red also has a particular loop in it which is held in place with electrical tape. See picture below. Is that odd at all?

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  #76  
Old 06-06-15, 09:47 AM
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Regarding the red wire, I'm hoping you can shed some light on it and suggest what I should do with it. It's from the circuit that feeds the garage receptacles and lights. It's 12-3 wire, and the white, red, and ground all route to the same bus bar hole.
Does it still work? Do you know where that cable connects to the garage lights? If so check what the connection is. If you can't find where it goes disconnect it, cap with a wire nut and see if every thing on the breaker works.
I might be short on holes in that case.
If you are add a ground bar to the old panel and move some of the grounds to it.
 
  #77  
Old 06-06-15, 05:08 PM
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I just pulled up the cooktop installation instructions for the first time in quite awhile, and found this recommendation:
A 120 volt, 60 Hz, AC only, 15-amp, fused electrical circuit is
required. A time-delay fuse or circuit breaker is also
recommended. It is recommended that a separate circuit
serving only this cooktop be provided.
So I'm now leaning toward doing two new circuits - a 15-amp circuit for the cooktop, and a 20-amp GFCI circuit for the island. The two circuits that were moved to the sub panel aren't used a whole lot, so I think the additional circuit will still be fine with the 60amp feed into the sub panel.

Also, what is the "fused" requirement? Does that change my plan of using a standard 15-amp circuit?
 
  #78  
Old 06-06-15, 05:30 PM
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Fused simply means a breaker or fuse. Curious how many amps does the cook top draw? Does the cook top have a plug?
 
  #79  
Old 06-06-15, 05:37 PM
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Cook top label says "10 amps or less." Yes, it has a grounded plug.

Oh, I forgot to ask yesterday, do unused open knockouts in the panel need to be plugged? The sub panel has an open 2" knockout now (I was going for the smaller 1", but couldn't get it broken free without eventually taking the entire 2" out.) and the main panel has an open 1/2" knockout. If they need to be plugged, what do I plug them with? I didn't see anything at the store that looked to be intended for that purpose.
 

Last edited by jessman1128; 06-06-15 at 05:39 PM. Reason: Adding questions about open knockouts
  #80  
Old 06-06-15, 05:43 PM
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They make plugs for knock outs. 1o amps seems high. Usually the electric is just for the igniters. Is there anything else the cook top uses electric for?
 
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