Range wiring help
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Range wiring help
My parent's home was built in 1967. They purchased a new stove but the original stove was wired directly to a 3-wire (red black white) with no ground wire, armored cable. The white looks significantly of less gauge (ie thinner, if I'm not using "less" properly). I need to install an outlet for the new stove but I am leary using a wire with no ground. So I dug a little deeper and I cam upon a buried junction box a couple of feet away from where the wire came through the floor.
Also, the house has a very small service panel with fuses. There are three fuses labeled "Kitchen Heavy". When I undid the fuses to shut off power to the stove, the stove and counter top outlets all went out.
My first question is about the junction box. It seems to me that a wire is coming from the panel to the junction and from there it goes to the outlets and a separate wire goes to the stove. Is this, is any way and given the date of build, legal? Also, under what obligation am I to fix this issue and, of course, how would I fix it? Three fuses for two applications and none of the fuses are bridged. Seems overly confusing to try and fix. Could I just run a better range worth wire in place of the armored cable that is there?
As far as the hidden junction goes, I can cut a hole in the basement ceiling so access can be gained to the box so it won't be hidden any longer.
As always, your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.
Also, the house has a very small service panel with fuses. There are three fuses labeled "Kitchen Heavy". When I undid the fuses to shut off power to the stove, the stove and counter top outlets all went out.
My first question is about the junction box. It seems to me that a wire is coming from the panel to the junction and from there it goes to the outlets and a separate wire goes to the stove. Is this, is any way and given the date of build, legal? Also, under what obligation am I to fix this issue and, of course, how would I fix it? Three fuses for two applications and none of the fuses are bridged. Seems overly confusing to try and fix. Could I just run a better range worth wire in place of the armored cable that is there?
As far as the hidden junction goes, I can cut a hole in the basement ceiling so access can be gained to the box so it won't be hidden any longer.
As always, your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.
#2
Below assumes a full stove, four burners and an oven not a cook top.
What was the amp rating of the three fuses you removed? It sounds like they were Edison base (screw in). A stove would be expected to be on cartridge fuses.* What is the amp rating of the new stove.
Many stoves require a 50 amp or even 60 amp supply. It sounds like the whole house has only a 60 amp fuse panel. Can you post a picture of the fuse panel with the cover off? http://www.doityourself.com/forum/li...rt-images.html
*A complete stove, one with four burners and an oven is usually 40 amps minimum. A screw in fuse would be 30 amps or less.
What was the amp rating of the three fuses you removed? It sounds like they were Edison base (screw in). A stove would be expected to be on cartridge fuses.* What is the amp rating of the new stove.
Many stoves require a 50 amp or even 60 amp supply. It sounds like the whole house has only a 60 amp fuse panel. Can you post a picture of the fuse panel with the cover off? http://www.doityourself.com/forum/li...rt-images.html
*A complete stove, one with four burners and an oven is usually 40 amps minimum. A screw in fuse would be 30 amps or less.
Last edited by ray2047; 09-03-15 at 09:53 AM.
#3
I don't believe that configuration would have ever been legal unless the countertop outlets have a separate 20A or 15A fuse somewhere after they branch off the range feeder (and even that is "iffy"). If it wasn't for that mess you could legally re-use the old range cable under grandfathering rules, but given that discovery I don't think it's a great or safe idea.
The best option would be to run a new range cable back to the panel using #8-3/g NM cable to a 40A fuse block or double-breaker. The receptacle and cord set on the range side should be NEMA 14-50 configuration, and you will probably need to remove the bonding jumper inside the range wiring compartment per manufacturer's instructions.
The wiring to the kitchen countertop receptacles should be separated from the existing abandoned range cable and re-fed to that point with #12-2/g NM-B cable. The breaker or fuse at no more than 20A for #12 wire or 15A for #14 wire throughout the remainder of the circuit. If you can't determine the wire gauge, go with 15A. Adding GFCI receptacles if they aren't already there would be a really great idea to substantially improve safety.
The best option would be to run a new range cable back to the panel using #8-3/g NM cable to a 40A fuse block or double-breaker. The receptacle and cord set on the range side should be NEMA 14-50 configuration, and you will probably need to remove the bonding jumper inside the range wiring compartment per manufacturer's instructions.
The wiring to the kitchen countertop receptacles should be separated from the existing abandoned range cable and re-fed to that point with #12-2/g NM-B cable. The breaker or fuse at no more than 20A for #12 wire or 15A for #14 wire throughout the remainder of the circuit. If you can't determine the wire gauge, go with 15A. Adding GFCI receptacles if they aren't already there would be a really great idea to substantially improve safety.
#4
Member
Thread Starter
The three fuses are 15 amps each. I don't have the new stove yet and it isn't something my sister was going to ask when she was buying the stove for my parents. The fuse panel is more than a 60 amp panel. I think I misrepresented the size as "small" relative to my 200amp panel in my home. I have several photos. Sorry for the quality as my hand was shaking reaching to get the shots. Noticed after the fact that the pictures are sideways. Rotate them right 90*.
I had another issue come up today. I went to rewire the stove cable (original didn't have a ground) so I removed the three kitchen fuses from the panel. White went fine, red was good but when I went to connect the black they sparked. How did they spark if I had the fuses out?
I had another issue come up today. I went to rewire the stove cable (original didn't have a ground) so I removed the three kitchen fuses from the panel. White went fine, red was good but when I went to connect the black they sparked. How did they spark if I had the fuses out?
Last edited by edee_em; 09-04-15 at 04:48 PM. Reason: pictures not right way up
#5
Installing a 3 wire receptacle for your new stove would be allowed as you are not extending the circuit and would be grandfathered in IMO. You would wire the new stove with a 3 wire cord. The stove chassis would be connected to the neutral wire using the bonding strap/wire. You will find this info in the new stove manual.
I think this is the pullout for the stove (circled red) as it is the only one I can see that has the larger wires needed to run a stove. It also has the right wires, Black, red, white:
You may have blown a fuse/fuse stat from the sparking. The fuses you disconnected is not the ones needed to disconnect the stove. It also appears you have reset-able fuses based on the button in the middle of the fuses. Kind of an early circuit breaker.
I think this is the pullout for the stove (circled red) as it is the only one I can see that has the larger wires needed to run a stove. It also has the right wires, Black, red, white:
You may have blown a fuse/fuse stat from the sparking. The fuses you disconnected is not the ones needed to disconnect the stove. It also appears you have reset-able fuses based on the button in the middle of the fuses. Kind of an early circuit breaker.
Last edited by Tolyn Ironhand; 09-05-15 at 03:58 AM.
#6
Member
Thread Starter
Thanks Tolyn. Yes, the red circle does identify the range circuit. I checked the fuses in there and they were 60amps and one of them was blown. Checked the outlet today and it only tested 120 instead of 240 (at the red/black connections). Changed out the two 60's with new 40amp fuses (was told to do this by an electrician). Checked again and only got 120v again. I then checked the main 100amp fuses and the left one was dead. Swapped them out and everything turned out wonderfully. I did change the 3-wire to a 4-wire as it was only a 3 foot run and I like the comfort of the ground. Thanks to all for your thoughts!