Recently scooped up a 2002 hot springs sovereign hot tub. I am needing to run a dedicated circuit and figure I might as well convert it(its convert-able) to 240. From the way I read the instructions(admittedly, im not going to follow them to the T), the hot tub would like a 50 amp standard breaker feeding into a sub panel that includes a 20 amp single pole gfci (for jets) and 30 amp double pole gfci (for heater). For a few reasons, im not going to use a sub panel. Im also not planning to use a standalone disconnect. My meter and service is located on the outside of the home approximately 35 feet from the hot tub. I know code might dictate some technicalities but im already inspected. I plan to use the breaker as the disconnect and I have at least 35 spaces in my main panel. Therefore I dont see the need for the disconnect or sub.

My intention is to run the 20 amp single pole gfci breaker from the main service inside pvc looping into a junction box and changing to flex before hitting the hot tub. I then planned to run a 30 amp double pole gfci breaker from the main service also inside pvc looping into the junction box and changing to flex before hitting the hot tub. I then planned to run a spare 12-3 from the main service inside the pvc and terminating into the junction box. This spare will be used to tap into for the pool(yes 120) next spring.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B11...ew?usp=sharing (This image shows my service, it is located appr 35 feet from the tub and will serve as the disconnect)

Here is an overhead of what I am working with (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B11...ew?usp=sharing)

Now here comes my question...!

The instructions show a jumper located on 4 and 5 of "TB-1". I understand it shows a sub panel. Im disregarding that part. HOWEVER, these instructions seems to show the 30amp circuit NOT including a neutral. It appears that the jumper on the panel will be serving to SHARE the neutral from the 120v circuit that also enters the tub. Can I remove this jumper, and then wire each circuit with its own neutral? Or should I leave the jumper and only run a 10-2 for the 30 amp circuit and allow the neutral to share(completely assuming that is what the jumper is doing)?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B11...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B11...ew?usp=sharing (more instruction)

I drew an example (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B11...ew?usp=sharing)

 

Can't do it your way as code REQUIRES the disconnecting means be no more than fifty feet and in direct line of sight of the appliance. Having the spa around the corner of the house means the panel is NOT in a direct line of sight. You COULD use a pair of air conditioner service disconnect, one in the 240 volt line for the heater and another in the 120 volt line for the pump.

Your screenshots of the instruction manual do not show enough detail for me to read them. Do you have the URLs of these so I can see them directly?

You will not need a neutral conductor for the heaters. You MAY be able to run a single 240/120 circuit to the spa control panel IF you can add proper fuses or circuit breakers for the heaters and pump at the spa itself. You will also need a GFCI circuit breaker in your service (main) panel.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B11...ew?usp=sharing (Manual)

Wait, your're saying I need breakers at the main and also the tub? Even the manual doesnt ask for this?

 

A disconnect and a breaker are not the same thing. A disconnect is a type of safety switch. Some have fuses some don't.The type Furd refers to is an unfused disconnect.

 

Yes, I understand the difference. Both can serve as disconnects with regard to interrupting power. A breaker serves as overcurrent also, though a fused disconnect can be used. I understand my line of sight is not there. I understand the use and need(or lack of) of the disconnect. I find the disconnect redundant in this case(aside from the line of sight). My question is, should i remove that jumper that bonds those neutrals and run them separately?

 

The line-of-sight requirement is one of the few things that is NEVER removed from the National Electrical Code (NEC) when it is adopted as law. YOU might think(?) it to be redundant but it IS the law.

We do not give advice on circumventing codes.

The answer to your question is covered in the manufacturer's instructions.

 

Why would you want to blatantly disregard safety? I don't think you really do understand the need for a disconnect.

 

EVERY tub I have ever wired, from an older used tub, to a brand new one, only has required ONE feed. A single 30 - 50 amp feeder normally with a neutral, AND GFCI protected. Looking at the instructions you posted the spa sub panel might need to be purchased from the dealer. Furd is correct, everything you need is in the instructions. Follow them.

If you get approval from the inspector for what you want to do then you are all good. They might allow the disconnect just around the corner as you propose. You are pulling the proper permits right? The disconnect(s) are required to be at least 5' away from the tub, as shown in the instructions.

 

The manual clearly states it does not want a single 50 amp service. It wants separated feeds so if one piece of equipment fails (say a 20 amp motor) the breaker for that motor will trip. Im not sure how this sounds incorrect or unsafe, but it is actually safer than having one 50 amp feed for the entire operation.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B11...ew?usp=sharing (MANUAL)

Let me be clear, there is no permit necessary or inspection being done. It simply isn't required in my parish. I have called my inspector and he told me the setup i have explained was fine except he wanted a disconnect. My question here is not regarding a disconnect. It was after my conversation with him I noticed these circuits are sharing a neutral with a jumper per the schematic. This led me to question if two gfci circuits should be sharing this neutral.(https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B11...ew?usp=sharing)

My question was, would it be best to remove the jumper and use each circuit with its own neutral.

I am being questioned on what a disconnect is used for. A non fused service disconnect is used for shutting down the power for a piece of equipment when being worked on. Generally, a service tech cannot access at all/or conveniently the breaker. Line of sight is required so that no one can reactivate that power while the equipment is being worked on. An emergency shut off is required for removing power in an emergency situation and requires labeling for "regular people". However, the code does not require an emergency shutoff for single family residence. So, being that no one will be servicing my equipment but myself, I plan to use my breaker for that purpose. There is NO safety issue here? So correct me Joe, how do I not understand? ACTUALLY, had I followed the manufacturer instruction, the subpanel they sell serves as the disconnect for the entire setup. Reading the code as law, and understanding its purpose is two different things. Agree to disagree. I really didnt ask for anything about a disconnect.

Did you know by code, my emergency panel that is pictured already (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B11...ew?usp=sharing) is considered a subpanel and not a main despite ther transfer switch being service rated and 99% of the home running from it in service mode? So educate me on how running ANOTHER subpanel makes this legal. It doesnt! I already have a subpanel, and coming from it with these circuits AS SHOWN IN THE MANUAL is no different than setting up a new panel. The only admittedly code violation here is the disconnect NOT being in line of sight. I tell you what. Lets assume im putting a disconnect from now on ... can we now ...after all this...answer the only question I ever asked??

My question was, would it be best to remove the jumper and use each circuit with its own neutral.

 

Plan B if you just don't want a disconnect is a permanently installed lock out for the breaker if the local AHJ approves. Note most lock outs are temporary and those can't be used.

 

I thought we were assuming I was using a disconnect now

 

Since you have already told us that you are NOT going to install a proper disconnect no one is going to ASSume that you will.

Further, that you even ask the question of one neutral vs. two tells me that you do not know anywhere near as much about electricity as you want us to believe.

 

Uhhhh that would be why I'm here... If I knew, I wouldn't ask. What's your problem? I'm not an electrician, I have asked about one vs two neutrals. You sir, have failed to expound an ounce of knowledge here and only threw shots at me. Is that what this website is like... Let's belittle the guy who comes here to ask? FFS, that would make this the worst forum ever. I ask a question and u belittle me for asking. Why are you making this so personal? If you know the answer so profoundly, please just answer it... Is it a yes... Or no? Seems like you don't know, which is fine... But answer the question or ignore the post. Yall don't teach any forum etiquette here?

Just had an epiphany, I think I know the answer to my own question... But I'm thinking it's become so personal ide like to hear Furd answer it... Yah know, bc he knows so much.

 

You and only you will be servicing this equipment? Nothing will ever happen to you? You will never sell the house and this installation to anyone else and if you do, you'll still be there and be the only one to service this equipment? It must be nice to be completely invincible. The instructions are written to meet codes and codes are written and inspections are performed to protect us all from people who don't want to follow the instructions. What do you have against safety?

 

Yes, I will be the only one. No the house was just built last year(by myself, wired by myself completely inspected within code) and will not be for sale. It is a family compound and noone is selling. I highly doubt this hot tub to last my lifetime. The junction box would allow me to remove the setup when that time comes and terminate the circuits inside of it.

Truth is, I designed and built the home. I designated the north side of the house to serve all utility purposes. It houses everything from the service, generator, AC units, water well, all disconnects for such equipment. There is a slab here everything sits on and is all being fenced off to keep kids out. I do not want to put a disconnect on the rear of the home. It looks bad and I don't want any access to it outside of the fence. Best case scenario is I do actually install a disconnect... But it still will be right around the corner(no real line of sight even tho it is 6 feet away). If you could actually tell me realistically how this is unsafe, I'll hear it. But no, no one is servicing this except me, which is why I'm hear and didn't hire this out. I know code is law, but it has reason for existence... I understand the reason for the need.

 

I have installed this type of tub before. Only the 20A circuit uses a neutral. Your conduit should have 2 #12s (white, black) and 3 #10s (black,red,green). Note that the #10 green ground needs to be solid copper, not stranded. And if you have metal within 10' (including concrete rebar), the bond wire should be solid #8 copper, although that one can be bare.

Code does not specifically allow this for pools/spas, but if a disconnect is not within LOS, the breakers absolutely must have lock shackles.

 

Thank you sir for answering my question.

 

Actually the manual does show a single 50 amp non-GFCI feed from the main panel to a sub panel. The sub panel could be considered as your disconnect (Within sight, no closer then 5', no further then 50') The Sub panel would then have your two pole 30 amp GFCI breaker, and a single pole 20 amp GFCI breaker. You will need a outdoor panel for your sub panel with at least 4 spaces. You will also need a 120 volt GFCI protected receptacle no closer then 6' and no further then 10' for servicing.