Industrial demand rates?????

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  #1  
Old 10-21-15, 02:12 PM
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Industrial demand rates?????

Got some good advice on here about running a 100 amp subpanel 300 feet back to my man cave mechanics utopia that I am trying to convert from an old barn. Got in touch with one electrician about running the line and he said that because it is not a residential dwelling, such as a house or an apartment, I would be subject to being billed at the energy companies industrial demand rate. What the hell is this???? The building will have it's own meter but that is only because the 100 amp box in my main dwelling has a meter left over from a time we had appliances on an off peak timer....which we do not anymore. What is the difference in electric price from what I pay now compared to that industrial stuff. All I want is my own little mechanics hobby shop. Would the price I pay for electric be negligible? 20% more? 100% more???? Try to get ahead in life and someone always wants to take a big painful bite out your a$$!!!!!
 
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Old 10-21-15, 02:22 PM
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Any reason the barn has to have its own meter?
 
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Old 10-21-15, 02:26 PM
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If you go to your power companies web page they should have their rates listed for residential, commercial, and industrial. If this is in a residential neighborhood I kind of doubt they will charge you commercial rates it is just a detached garage. Your not running a business are you? The only thing they may charge is a minimum regardless how little power is used.
 
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Old 10-21-15, 02:33 PM
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I have a bldg at the bottom end of my property. It was billed at the commercial rate because it wasn't part of my residence. I know a farmer that has a barn that is a long ways from his house so it has it's own meter - also billed at the commercial rate. Locally the commercial rate is only a little higher than residential but they do charge more for the initial hook up and there is a higher minimum charge. I was told on mine that I could only get it changed to residential rate if I put in a bed rm and bath ... along with septic.
 
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Old 10-21-15, 02:44 PM
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No I am not running a business, I just want a shop to play in....give me something to do when I retire. If I use the 100 amp box with the meter the meter would have to stay. I can see where the main line splits off to both meters on the outside. My main house has a 200 amp box bit I do not know if I can slit a 100 amp subpanel off of it. It had most of the circuits transferred out of it to a transfer switch box for a home generator. The 200 amp box has a 100 amp breaker in it for the genny, along with a few other ones that would not fit in the transfer box. If I could run the new subpanel off of it I would get charged the residential rate but when you take the front cover off the box is like jam packed with wires the guys did when installing the generator. I don't know if it can be done. I have the number to the engineers at the power company to talk to them tomorrow.
 
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Old 10-21-15, 02:51 PM
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My electric bill now runs about $125 a month. I could stand a $20-$30 increase, I just don't want it to double. I went to the power companies web page....might as well be written in Russian.
 
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Old 10-21-15, 04:17 PM
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when you take the front cover off the box is like jam packed with wires the guys did when installing the generator.
Post a picture with the cover off. http://www.doityourself.com/forum/li...rt-images.html
 
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Old 10-21-15, 04:55 PM
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I had meant to ask you about the second meter earlier when you mentioned. Here, in NJ, they'd only allow the one meter for residential. (unless multi family) The second meter would automatically be a commercial meter, if even allowed.

The power companies have their own rules and most of them are based on the bottom line.

You do not want a demand meter for your garage. The welder will knock it for a loop depending on how long you weld.
 
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Old 10-21-15, 05:11 PM
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I got to thinking about it. In Maryland they allow you a second meter if you plan to put things such as dryer/water heater/ect on for off peak service....then they charge you a lower rate for that electric used but the electric only flows at certain times of the day. That got old fast and we had the timer removed but the meter had to stay. Delmarva could not get rid of it without some major electric work which I think they thought just was not worth the effort. Since the electric to the second meter is being billed at a residential rate and the connection to it will be made in the garage.....how is Delmarva going to know where the electric is being used at. I think the electrician may have jumped the gun without getting all the facts.
 
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Old 10-21-15, 05:12 PM
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Your power company might have a non-demand commercial rate (not necessarily the same as residential) for small users and a demand rate for large users.

Demand means that there is a surcharge (demand charge) for going above a certain total amperes draw even if it happens only once during the billing period. Sometimes there will be a second surcharge if you do it twice, etc. Sometimes the amount of the surcharge depends on the actual maximum draw. The exact formula varies from one power company to another.

One kind of demand meter has a built in ammeter or wattmeter with a needle. The needle pushes a pointer up and the latter stays up. When the meter reader comes around he notes the position of the pointer and uses a tiny handle on the outside of the meter to push the pointer back down to start the next billing period with.
 
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Old 10-21-15, 05:19 PM
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I had installed many hot water heater meter services. The meter always provided AC power. It had a timer in it so that there was a daytime/peak rate and a nighttime/off peak rate. In order for the water heater to take advantage of these rates.... a customer controlled timer was installed that allowed the water heater to only heat at night. During the day if you found yourself out of hot water you could trip the timer and have hot water at the premium rate.

Here in NJ... those meters are gone. There may be a few kicking around but definitely no new ones are being put in service. There again.... affects the bottom line.
 
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Old 10-21-15, 09:52 PM
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Please post some pictures of this second watt-hour meter, the second panel and how the incoming electricity runs from the service connection (utility connection) to the meter. Be sure to stand far enough away so I can see EXACTLY how the power comes to this second meter.
 
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Old 10-22-15, 02:46 AM
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DPL-Elec-Rate-Insert-CI (1).pdf

I hope this attachment works. This is from my electric company. I will post pics of my meter setup and panels also this morn.
 
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Old 10-22-15, 05:06 AM
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The electric company will want to see a home run from the first meter (in the sealed meter panel) to the house breaker panel and another home run from the second meter to a disconnect switch or breaker panel on the outside of the house.

In an earlier lifetime I had a (condo unit) with two meters, one for general use and the other for reduced rate but untimed water heating. There was a 240 volt only home run from the meter panel to a separate disconnect next to the main panel.which in turn was wired to the water heater.
 
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Old 10-22-15, 05:44 AM
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Rates

The customer charge is fixed per season.
The demand charge is based on your peak demand for the billing period.
The energy charge is for the total KWH used during the billing period.
 
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Old 10-22-15, 12:40 PM
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OK, finally got the pics AND think I found an electrician to work with me. Talked to him today and he told me using the separate 100 amp meter would be fine but would have to install a disconnect in line. I take it that is one of those things you see beside an air conditioner where it has a up/down handle on it to disconnect power in an emergency? I asked about cable and he wants to use mobile home service cable......2/0-2/0-1-4. He says this can be buried without conduit. The main feeds are bigger than the Notre Dame quadraplex wire I was looking at but the neutral and ground is a little bit smaller. Does this sound feasible to you?
Attachment 57840Attachment 57841Attachment 57842Attachment 57843
 
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Old 10-22-15, 12:50 PM
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Yes the plan sounds reasonable. It may be cheaper for the electrician to just install a small 100A panel as the disconnect instead of a big throw switch.
 
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Old 10-22-15, 02:00 PM
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Your pictures did not upload. Possibly they are too big ? http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...-pictures.html
 
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Old 10-22-15, 03:00 PM
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Let me try this again....
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Old 10-22-15, 04:11 PM
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Why do you even want to fool with the second meter? If this is your house meter main breaker box it confirms what I thought. You can easily run a feed to the barn from this breaker box.

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Most of the breakers are no longer in use and space could be easily made for a run to the barn.
but when you take the front cover off the box is like jam packed with wires
Not really. You may need to juggle the grounds and neutrals a bit to make space for the new ground and neutral but three different ways that might be done.
 
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Old 10-22-15, 04:32 PM
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Well....that is the reason I am on this forum. I am a nurse by trade. If you can't pee....you come to me.....I can fix that. When it comes to electric I need advice. I mean, I can run simple lines....hook up a light or air compressor but to me one box looks full, the other looks empty. I got two electricians coming over to give me an estimate and our discussion here will at least give me the appearance that I know a little. So....you are right. Most of the breakers in the 200 amp main panel are not connected. Like I stated there is a 100 amp breaker in that panel for the genny that is active, a 20 amp for an air compressor, and 1 or 2 other 15 amp breakers. I know it does not matter how much the total breakers add up to in a panel but rather the amount of load being drawn off that panel at one time. So you think I could run a 100 amp panel off this main panel and be good without using the metered 100 amp box? Even if I am running an arch welder in the shop? I mean the transfer box to the genny holds most of the active circuits, however when the Genny is not running they still have to draw power from this main box. So if mom is running an AC, the dishwasher, TV, lights, ect and then I throw on an arch welder, shop lights, radio...ect. Get where I am going with this.
 
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Old 10-22-15, 04:33 PM
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I agree with Ray...... unless you have large demand items in the house in which case the garage panel would be a burden.

That is a small meter pan for a 200A service. An even smaller pan for the secondary meter although it may only be set up as a 60A service.

If you were to connect to the second meter you'd have to replace the meter pan and install a fused disconnect.

I see the second meter is still "turned on". You aren't using it or paying for it... right ?
 
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Old 10-22-15, 04:44 PM
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So you think I could run a 100 amp panel off this main panel and be good without using the metered 100 amp box?
Yes but you would probably only need a 60 amp breaker to feed the 100 amp panel in the barn unless you had a plasma welder or electric heat. The reason for a 100 amp panel is to provide enough circuit spaces for the breakers. The 100 amp main breaker only serves as the code required disconnect switch so it doesn't mater that it is 100 amps. The breaker protection is at the house. For 300 feet you will need to up size the wires. Three #4 and one #8 for ground would probably be adequate assuming actual load at any one time never exceeded 50 amps for more than a short time.
 
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Old 10-22-15, 05:00 PM
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On the second meter that is still turned on....the only thing on it is a 30 amp dryer that was never switched over when everything else was.....I don't know why. I was planning to switch the dryer over to the big box and use the small one designated for my workshop....or that was my plan. I don't know....I think I want a full 100 amps to the shop...not 60. I don't know 5 years from now what I will want to put in there and if I am going to pay this much for running the lines I want enough juice so later down the line if the 60 amp breaker blows I don't sit there and say WTF? What is the old saying....better to have and not need than to need and not have. I hear the older you get the more you like heat and I like it pretty much right now. I may put in a heated paint shop, a 30x15 prefab addition onto the shop....have not made up my mind yet on that one.
 
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Old 10-22-15, 05:06 PM
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Then definitely go with a 100 amp feed. Was just trying to save you a bit of money.
 
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Old 10-22-15, 05:20 PM
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I appreciate that Ray....I sure have learned a lot from this conversation and it got me thinking. The pics and panels we are discussing are in my mother's main residence. That is where the empty 100 amp box is. I say that it is empty even though there is a dryer hanging on it.....since I was planning to switch that circuit over to the big panel. Now.....I built my house right behind moms and I have the same 2 box/2 meter set up.....only on that second meter I have a 50 amp hot tub, water heater, and dryer hanging on it. Even though my house is smaller than moms my electric bill run twice what hers does. Do you think they are charging me this industrial rate on this second meter???????
 
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Old 10-22-15, 05:33 PM
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With the second meter.... you are probably paying twice the normal electric rate for daytime use and half the rate for nighttime use.

The meters look identical. Maybe you're paying the same rate for both now. You'd need to check the bills for the rates.

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Old 10-22-15, 05:53 PM
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Well I checked....the bill does show 2 different meters with 2 different readings but then they add the readings together and charge the same price per KWH for the whole mess...well it was a thought. At least I know I am not getting cheated. I think this thread has about played out.....thanks to all for the input. I am sure you will see me back somewhere on this forum again
 
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