Go Back  DoItYourself.com Community Forums > Electrical, AC & DC. Electronic Equipment and Computers > Electrical - AC & DC
Reload this Page >

Replacing a Federal Pacific Stab Lok panel and new line runs question

Replacing a Federal Pacific Stab Lok panel and new line runs question

Reply

  #1  
Old 10-29-15, 01:22 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 11
Replacing a Federal Pacific Stab Lok panel and new line runs question

Hello,

It started out with me looking to run another 15 or 20 amp line into my room when i then found out the dangers of the of having a Stab Lok circuit breaker service panel. At this point, i'm looking to get it replaced by a master electrician, but i wanted to prepare myself (knowledge wise) when talking to an electrician. I've replaced outlets before, added a fan, and i'm familiar with 12 volt applications but the though of messing with 240 volts isn't for me Roughly I'm expecting to pay $1500 for the service panel install (not even sure if that includes the new panel with breakers). Currently my Stab Lok panel has 3 separate circuit breaker mains rated at 60, 50, and 30 so i assume the total is 140 amps.

My first question would be, what panel should i be looking at? I know GE, Siemens, Square D all make service panels. Is there a specific brand i should stick with?

Second question, i know this would involve a more physical inspection, but could i keep all the lines currently running to the service panel? I ask because if they have to replace all the lines, the cost will definitely jump up.

Last question, I'm looking to run several dedicated new lines in addition to what i currently have in home: One 20 amp line and one 15 amp to a bedroom (one for my servers and the other for the portable air conditioner, I may change the 20 amp line to a 30 amp line), two dedicated 20 amp lines to the garage (one for using tools etc outlet, the other for the washer and gas dryer), two or three 20 amp dedicated lines to the living room (high current amplifiers, pc, tv etc), two 20 amp dedicated lines to the kitchen (one for the fridge, other for small appliances). Does this sound right? What should i expect cost wise per line charge?

I'm located in Fort Bend County, Houston, TX if that info is needed.

Thanks for reading!
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 10-29-15, 03:12 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,399
Currently my Stab Lok panel has 3 separate circuit breaker mains rated at 60, 50, and 30 so i assume the total is 140 amps.
Wrong assumption. You obviously have what is called a "split bus" panel. To determine the amperage capacity of the existing panel look at the name plate or panel description, most likely on the panel door. It will be 100, 125, 150 or 200 amperes.

Square D type QO panels are considered by many to be the top of the line and they have a price to match. All the other makers and also the Square D "Homeline" panels are adequate and all meet the specifications for residential panels. I like Siemens for their easy availability (most big box stores sell Siemens). Others downgrade any panel that does not have copper bus bars but for the most part I don't think that aluminum bus bars is a disqualifier.


Second question, i know this would involve a more physical inspection, but could i keep all the lines currently running to the service panel?
Generally yes, you do need enough of the outer sheath to be able to clamp it to the box connector. In most areas it is acceptable to splice additional wire in the panel enclosure if the wire lengths are too short. (Note, this is not acceptable in some Canadian Provinces or cities.)


I may change the 20 amp line to a 30 amp line)
General purpose lighting and receptacle circuits are limited to a maximum of 20 amperes. You may only run a 30 ampere circuit to a dedicated appliance.


two dedicated 20 amp lines to the garage (one for using tools etc outlet, the other for the washer and gas dryer),
IF the garage is detached only one circuit may be run, most likely a feeder to a sub-panel in the detached garage. IF the garage is physically attached to the house you may run as many different circuits as desired. Laundry facilities require a dedicated circuit of 20 amperes. I recommend that garage lighting be separate from receptacle circuits. ALL garage receptacles, including for an overhead door operator, must be GFCI protected.


two 20 amp dedicated lines to the kitchen (one for the fridge, other for small appliances).
Kitchens are required to have a minimum of two "small appliance branch circuits" (SABCs) for all counter top receptacles, including receptacles in/on an island. No point on a counter top may be more than two feet from a receptacle, which translates to a receptacle every four feet. There are several other requirements for SABCs that I don't fully remember off the top of my head. Personally, I think that two SABCs is not enough and I recommend at least three SABCs and more if you have a larger kitchen or you do any amount of "entertaining" in your house. Remember, that any receptacles in a pantry or dining area are considered to be SABCs as well. Also, no lighting may be connected to a SABC. Refrigerators and gas only ranges MAY be connected to a SABC. If you dedicate a circuit to the refrigerator you still need a minimum of two other SABCs.

It is utterly impossible to make any kind of educated guess as to the cost of the additional circuits.
 
  #3  
Old 10-29-15, 07:07 AM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,595
The existing circuits are fine. The wiring in the walls will not need to be changed.
 
  #4  
Old 10-29-15, 08:51 AM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,405
i'm looking to get it replaced by a master electrician, but i wanted to prepare myself (knowledge wise) when talking to an electrician.
My first question would be, what panel should i be looking at? I know GE, Siemens, Square D all make service panels. Is there a specific brand i should stick with?
I am pretty sure you meant that you would be using an electrical contractor to replace the panel. You do not need to go shopping for a new panel, the contractor will want to furnish the material. Some small contractors might be willing to let you furnish material, but it would be rare. What you do need to think about is the size of the panel you want; 20 circuit, 30 circuit, 40 circuit, etc. Ask the contractor what brand panels he uses, I am sure if you have a preference he would accomodate you.

Since you have an FPE panel the existing service (meter socket, mast and service entrance wiring) must be 35 or more years old and may need more updating than just the panel. If you have service cable type service entrance wiring, it probably needs to be replaced. Have your contractor look at it and make a recommendation. Your grounding will also need to be brought up the current code.
 
  #5  
Old 10-29-15, 10:58 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 11
Wrong assumption. You obviously have what is called a "split bus" panel. To determine the amperage capacity of the existing panel look at the name plate or panel description, most likely on the panel door. It will be 100, 125, 150 or 200 amperes.

Square D type QO panels are considered by many to be the top of the line and they have a price to match. All the other makers and also the Square D "Homeline" panels are adequate and all meet the specifications for residential panels. I like Siemens for their easy availability (most big box stores sell Siemens). Others downgrade any panel that does not have copper bus bars but for the most part I don't think that aluminum bus bars is a disqualifier
The existing panel is quite rusted, I'll try to take a look at the panel when the sun rises. From what i can tell though, the service entry cables are larger than 4 awg wire, smaller than 1/0 awg so my guess would be 2 awg wire (i'm judging with car audio power wires but they are true to their gauge). I can also say the cable going in is aluminum. So i'm rated for an estimated 90 amps?

If so, what am i looking cost wise to upgrade the service cable? I can only imagine thousands of dollars at this point, and it's not looking like i can afford this anymore.

General purpose lighting and receptacle circuits are limited to a maximum of 20 amperes. You may only run a 30 ampere circuit to a dedicated appliance.
It would be to a server battery backup. More than likely i'll just stick with 20 amps but the idea of a 30 amp battery backup has crossed my mind.

Kitchens are required to have a minimum of two "small appliance branch circuits" (SABCs) for all counter top receptacles, including receptacles in/on an island. No point on a counter top may be more than two feet from a receptacle, which translates to a receptacle every four feet. There are several other requirements for SABCs that I don't fully remember off the top of my head. Personally, I think that two SABCs is not enough and I recommend at least three SABCs and more if you have a larger kitchen or you do any amount of "entertaining" in your house. Remember, that any receptacles in a pantry or dining area are considered to be SABCs as well. Also, no lighting may be connected to a SABC. Refrigerators and gas only ranges MAY be connected to a SABC. If you dedicate a circuit to the refrigerator you still need a minimum of two other SABCs.
I will read up more about SABCs. One question though do they have to be rated at 15 amps or 20 amps?
 
  #6  
Old 10-29-15, 11:01 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 11
Since you have an FPE panel the existing service (meter socket, mast and service entrance wiring) must be 35 or more years old and may need more updating than just the panel. If you have service cable type service entrance wiring, it probably needs to be replaced. Have your contractor look at it and make a recommendation. Your grounding will also need to be brought up the current code.
Last year they replaced the analog meter with a digital meter, still the same box though.

Are there certain contractors i should be looking at experience wise? I called them a master electrician because that's what all the searches on craigslist found in Houston.
 
  #7  
Old 10-30-15, 03:34 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,399
Are you certain the service conductors (from the meter to the panel) are aluminum? If they have rubber insulation instead of plastic they could be tinned copper. If they really are aluminum you most likely have a 100 ampere service.

If copper conductors, the most common wire sizes vs. panel amperage rating are: #1, #2 or #3 copper for a 100 ampere panel, the type of insulation determining the final calculation. Add a #1/0 (size 0 pronounced one-aught) for a 125 ampere panel. #1/0 or #2/0 (00) for 150 amperes and 3/0 (000) four a 200 ampere panel. Sometimes 2/0 is used for residential 200 ampere panels but I don't recommend it.

The corresponding sizes in aluminum conductors would be generally one size larger than copper.

Last year they replaced the analog meter with a digital meter, still the same box though.
Irrelevant. The meter proper has little bearing on the size of the service.

Are there certain contractors i should be looking at experience wise? I called them a master electrician because that's what all the searches on craigslist found in Houston.
The term "master" is simply a qualifier to an electrician's license. It generally denotes a person with more training and/or experience than a journeyman electrician and certainly more than an apprentice electrician. In some jurisdictions only a master may "pull" a permit and in all cases an apprentice must be supervised by either a journeyman or a master. Where the term falls flat is that there are no national standards for the use of these terms and a master in one jurisdiction may hardly qualify as a journeyman in a different jurisdiction. In some jurisdictions (hopefully dying out) the master is awarded as a personal or political favor.

I will read up more about SABCs. One question though do they have to be rated at 15 amps or 20 amps?
SABCs are always 20 amperes. I usually put that in my blurb, I missed it this time, sorry.

I agree with Joe, you do not hire a "master" electrician but an electrical contractor. The contractor most likely IS a master but often the jurisdiction lays additional requirements on him or her to actually run the business such as a contractor's bond and insurance. Hiring a "master" apart from a contractor could open you up to all sorts of problems, especially if the master tries to cut any corners with the installation. Most contractors will not allow you to supply any equipment but should allow you to specify brands acceptable to you.

AND, it is most likely that you will need to replace the meter socket along with any conduit and wiring from the utility's point of connection to the main circuit breaker on the new panel. Not having any idea of your installation I will state that normal prices for a service upgrade run from about $1,500 to about $2,500 depending on local labor costs, equipment costs, permitting costs and the like.

It is best to get several bids and don't confine yourself to just Craig's List but look at community bulletin boards, "shopper" type newspapers, the Yellow Pages and ask friends and families if they have any leads. I generally advise to toss the lowest bid as well as the highest bid and choose from what is left. Gut feelings about a person ARE important.
 
  #8  
Old 10-30-15, 07:22 PM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,405
the service entry cables are larger than 4 awg wire, smaller than 1/0 awg so my guess would be 2 awg wire
It is probably either a 100 or 125 amp service. As old as this service undoubtedly is, it is highly likely the existing service cable is copper. It is also highly likely the service cable's outer sheathing has a break in it that allowed water to travel within the cable and drip into the panel causing the rust problem. I am going to throw some numbers a little lower than Furd's, I think you could replace the existing service with a complete new 100 amp service in the $1200-$1300 range and with a 200 amp service in the $1500 to $1900 range if new aluminum service cable is used. Today, aluminum service entrance wiring is used in the majority of new homes and is standard in subdivision homes. If your panel is outside you could add about $200 to those numbers.

If you want to give the contractor a spec, ask for a copper bus loadcenter such as a 30 space-40 circuitor a 40 circuit. This is based upon using few, if any, tandem circuit breakers. You probably don't need one, but 200 amp panels are readily available that have as many as 40 spaces and 80 circuits.

To find a good qualified contractor you might try calling a local electrical supply house around 10 a.m. (after their morning rush) or after 2 p.m. and asking if they could recommend a couple contractors who do small residential work. I am sure they can give you all the contractors you would want to call for an estimate.
 
  #9  
Old 11-03-15, 07:02 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 11
Alright, so i made a few calls today on upgrading my service line to an 150 amp panel ready cable. First person was at Reliant which would be my service provider and they told me they they didn't do it, and to contact my electric utility provider for the area (Centerpoint Energy).

From there i told the gentleman what i wanted to do, and he understood and said he had to ask a supervisor. After holding for a while, he got back to me and told me they do not upgrade the service line from the transformer to the meter UNLESS i wanted to do a 200 amp ready line upgrade. Him and the supervisor both agreed my line would be okay for an 150 amp panel :/ which doesn't make sense to me if the online charts show 2 aluminum AWG wire is rated for 100 amps. The supervisor then told him that the electric meter they can upgrade but i told him i already have a digital one. When i asked for a price estimate for the 200 amp upgrade (just of of curiosity), he told me to contact my service provider (reliant) for an quote.

I know if i contact Reliant again, they won't have any idea and tell me to contact Centerpoint again. I'm right to believe that the cable from the transformer to the meter can only be altered by my utility provider correct?
 
  #10  
Old 11-03-15, 07:14 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 11
Im quite sure the cable is aluminum since it says aluminum on the cable itself. Otherwise i cant see what else the cable says.

Forgot to say the home was built in the 1970s to maybe early 80s.

What did you mean by local electrical supply house?

Thanks!
 
  #11  
Old 11-03-15, 07:56 PM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,595
I doubt that they will change your drop from the pole even if you were to upgrade. They use different sizing rules.
 
  #12  
Old 11-03-15, 08:33 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,399
At my previous house the main power lines ran on the other side of the street. There was a pole set on my side of the street that served both my house and the neighbor's house. When I upgraded from a 60 ampere service to a 200 ampere service, to supply a new electric furnace, the power company did NOT change my drop but they DID change the wiring coming across the street that serviced both houses.
 
  #13  
Old 11-03-15, 10:16 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 11
That's interesting.

So am i stuck with the wire i have? Wouldn't running 150 amps on wire that is smaller than my panel's rated capacity be a risk for the service wire running too hot?

I talked to my neighbor, he had a 200 amp panel installed years ago and they never upgraded his service wire either.

Forgot to mention, my service cable is underground, not sure where the powerline is but it's not more than 3 houses down (heard transformers go out before)


Forgot this is in my backyard at the end of my backyard parallel to my service panel. Any idea what's inside?

@pcboss, what do you mean they use different sizing rules?
 
  #14  
Old 11-05-15, 12:33 AM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 110
Where is your electric meter?

I used to live in a house with an underground service. The meter was on the power pole. Everything that was underground belonged to the house, not the power company.

That box is probably where your service "drop" connects to the underground supply lines.

That cable you see goes to the meter. You don't know what kind of cable is on the power company side of the meter.

As long as the aluminum wire is properly connected using the proper hardware (needed in the new box), and it is not corroded, it is safe to leave it in place. If it must be replaced, it just runs to your electric meter, not to that connection box.
 
  #15  
Old 11-06-15, 08:19 AM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,405
i made a few calls today on upgrading my service line to an 150 amp panel ready cable
Why are you worried about the service lateral? It isn't your responsibility. Most power companies size the service laterals by calculated load and unless you are adding substantial new load, like electric heat, they won't upgrade the lateral. There is no need to.

Your contractor should be making the calls to coordinate the power company with the replacement of your service, that is why you hire a contractor.
 
  #16  
Old 11-06-15, 08:35 AM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 10,515
Residential laterals are usually sized for 200A minimum anyway. The power company uses different types of cable that is resistant to higher temperatures as it is not installed inside a flammable building. They can run more amps on the same size cables than you can run inside a building.

There would be no need to upsize the lateral unless you're adding a ton of additional electric load like a tankless water heater.
 
  #17  
Old 11-08-15, 10:30 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 11
Thank you for the responses, i was concerned that the service cable being too thin to handle a higher load but you guys are correct as i had an electrician come out to inspect and give me an estimate.

Here are some pictures of the service panels and the meter box





According to the electrician, the meter box has burn marks on it (the black residue and the coupler between the meter box and service panel were loose due to a wire overheating. We took apart the service panel cover and he showed me the neutral cable and told me the yellow and brown stains on it are due to the wire overheating. From what i could see in the service panel, the insulation was not melted though for the neutral cable. Any truth behind this?


Anyways, he gave me a price quote along with the work done including installing new 200 amp service panel and meter panel, replace the cable from meter panel to service panel, new ground clamp, run 8 dedicated circuit lines to different rooms (4 rooms total), and pull permit to inspect the work for $3800. This seems a bit steep though is it not? I do appreciate how thorough he was but the price seemed high. I priced out components on home depot and the total came to around $800 for parts. I do have another electrician coming out later this week to give me another estimate.
 
  #18  
Old 11-09-15, 09:23 AM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,405
Sounds reasonable to me. ............
 
  #19  
Old 11-09-15, 12:34 PM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,595
I think they may be on the cheap side.
 
  #20  
Old 11-13-15, 09:21 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 11
I just had a second electrician come out. His price was $2500 (1300 to replace the service panel), cheaper than $3800 from the first electrician, but he told me things i wasn't so comfortable with. For example, the burn marks on the meter panel, i he said if it's not broken it's working. He said that IF it's an issue, he'll stop work and inform me. Then i requested certain outlets to be replaced with 20 amp dedicated lines, his suggestion was to run conduit, run a subpanel outside near my room and living room (which are next to each other) and running new outlets near the subpanel. I also mentioned updating the kitchen to code and he said the kitchen is already on 20 amp lines and i just need to replace the outlets with GFCI outlets. This house is old, and while the breakers are all 20 amps, i'm not sure the wires inside my house running to outlets are 12 awg. Has 12-2 wire always been a yellow looking wire? All the wires i've seen to replace outlets with or up in my attic has always been white.

The only thing that made sense to me was that he said i should replace the service panel with nothing higher that what i got now which he determined to be 150 amps. He also looked at the service entry cable and said yeah, that's too thin for 200 amps. The other electrician included in his price quote a 200 amp panel.

I'm mechanically inclined with cars, so people always tell me horror stories about shady work, or paying too much for the job. I feel like i'm about to do one of those things with this whole electrical work.
 
  #21  
Old 11-13-15, 02:49 PM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,405
I just had a second electrician come out. His price was $2500 (1300 to replace the service panel), cheaper than $3800 from the first electrician
And this guy didn't quote the same job. If the meter socket is burnt it could still be working, but need to be replaced. If you are upgrading the service to higher amperage, it is almost guaranteed the service entrance wiring will have to be upgraded too. The first guy was giving you a complete new 200 amp service.

Has 12-2 wire always been a yellow looking wire? All the wires i've seen to replace outlets with or up in my attic has always been white.
12-2 used to be various colors including brown, gray, white, tan and maybe a few I missed. Today it is all yellow.
 
  #22  
Old 11-13-15, 03:06 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 11
The first electrician is not replacing the service entrance wire. I have the quote list and it doesn't state replacing the service entrance wire. It's replacing the meter box and service panel, ground, dedicated lines. I just sent him an email to confirm.

Basically first electrician said the same thing as ibooks said

ibpooks
Residential laterals are usually sized for 200A minimum anyway. The power company uses different types of cable that is resistant to higher temperatures as it is not installed inside a flammable building. They can run more amps on the same size cables than you can run inside a building.
Also i'm not sure if the meter socket itself is burnt, but the box does have burn marks. We couldn't open the meter box due to there being a lock. If the meter box is burnt and SHOULD be replaced and the 2nd electrician is telling me don't bother basically, should i disregard him as a contractor?
 
  #23  
Old 11-14-15, 07:05 PM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,405
The first electrician is not replacing the service entrance wire.
You said he was.

he gave me a price quote along with the work done including installing new 200 amp service panel and meter panel, replace the cable from meter panel to service panel, new ground clamp, run 8 dedicated circuit lines to different rooms (4 rooms total), and pull permit to inspect the work for $3800.
There it is, he is replacing the service entrance wiring from new meter socket to new panel. That service entrance wiring will be 200 amp rated, the same as the meter socket and the 200 amp panel.

Stop obsessing over the service lateral from the power company that feeds your meter socket, it isn't your responsibility.
 
  #24  
Old 11-16-15, 03:11 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 11
Okay, so the cable from the meter box to the service panel is the service entry and the cable from the transformer or whatever to the meter is called the service lateral...

Which still leaves me in a bind and i'll tell you why.

He also looked at the service entry cable and said yeah, that's too thin for 200 amps. The other electrician included in his price quote a 200 amp panel.
Quoting myself here. So i was incorrect with my terminology, what i should of said is he was looking at my service lateral cable (going from transformer to meter) is too thin for 200 amps.

Which leaves one electrician wrong and one right. Not both right, because one said it's fine to run a 200 amp which correlates with ibpooks said, and the second electrician said it's too thin.

I do thank you for answering my questions.
 
  #25  
Old 11-16-15, 06:41 AM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,595
The wires will be smaller than the same ampacity the electrician can run in the wall. As I said in post #11, they are sized using different rules.
 
  #26  
Old 11-16-15, 07:26 AM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 10,515
In my area you're pretty much required to replace the meter socket when you do a service change. The power company provides it for "free", but it is your responsibility to have it installed properly. This exact process varies around the country, but if I was doing the job I wouldn't consider it an optional step.
 
  #27  
Old 11-16-15, 07:40 AM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,595
If nothing else the conduit needs to be re glued into the adapter at the meter socket.
 
  #28  
Old 11-16-15, 08:50 AM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,405
what i should of said is he was looking at my service lateral cable (going from transformer to meter) is too thin for 200 amps.
Not necessarily. The service lateral may be too small to carry 200 amps, but unless you are adding a substantial new load such as all electric heat, you won't be drawing anything remotely close to 200 amps. Many power companies size the lateral or drop by calculated load and it is the customer's responsibility to notify the utility when a substantial new load is being added so they can reconsider the size of the lateral. You are not adding a substantial new load. If you were, the power company would look at the lateral and determine whether it needed to be replaced or not, it isn't your responsibility. If you still have doubts, contact the power company.

There are some circumstances where the customer might be responsible for the lateral, but this doesn't sound like one of those rare instances.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes