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Electrician Crossed 220vac and 120vac - need assistance verifying the damage

Electrician Crossed 220vac and 120vac - need assistance verifying the damage


  #1  
Old 10-31-15, 05:20 PM
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Electrician Crossed 220vac and 120vac - need assistance verifying the damage

My Electrician made a mistake and I need assistance verifying the damage.
Environment:
A. Kitchen and Garage Remodel.
B. Range being changed from electric to gas.
C. Circuit Breaker 7/8 220vac Oven.
D. Circuit Breaker 31 120vac GFCI many outlets. (master bath, outdoor sockets,..)
E. Circuit Breaker 33/34 220vac to Pool Equip SubPanel.
Objectives and Request:
1. Electric Oven 220vac Circuit (breaker 7/8) no longer needed.
2. Two Garage GFCI 120vac Sockets (on breaker 31) were tripping too often with power tools(table saw etc), also since it is shared with 3 Master Bath sockets, and 2 exterior porch sockets. Request to have 2 garage sockets get own circuit.
Wiring:
3. Picture 1 - new attic Junction Box with original white 10 gauge 220vac coming in, yellow 12 gauge 220vac going out. (mistake 1, should be 10-2)
4. Picture 2 - Existing Garage Socket Junction Box - 3 wires coming in, 4 twisted together. (mistake 2, did not disconnect 31 wires)
5. Picture 3 - Garage Socket Junction Box - 3 wires coming in, 4 twisted together. (mistake 2, did not disconnect 31 wires)
Events and Problems:
a. Circuit Breaker 7/8 off. Everything fine.
b. Action: Circuit Breaker 7/8 turned on.
c. Result 1: Circuit 31 flips off. 33/34 (for pool subpanel) not off.
d. Result 2: Pool Pump and hot tub not working. (in a subpanel connected to 33/34)
e. Examine 1: Subpanel breaker for Hot Tub had flipped off. Turned on, all well.
f. Examine 2: Pool Pump dead, verified 220vac (also verified each pole separate for 120 good)
g. With 31/32 off, 7/8 on, I have 120vac in Master Bath sockets and Garage Sockets.
h. With 31/32 on, 7/8 off I have 120vac in Master Bath sockets and Garage Sockets.

Solution: Disconnect existing 31 wire coming into one of the garage sockets, and somehow verify only getting one pole/leg?

Question #1: How to get only 1 pole/leg for that socket? (I would first un-nut all wires at garage sockets, kill 31. 7/8 on. ID 7/8 coming to sockets. Then?)

Question #2: How come I only get 120vac at sockets with 7/8 on, 31 off?

Big Big Key Question #3: Did electrician blow my pool pump? If so, how? He claims impossible.
 
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  #2  
Old 10-31-15, 05:43 PM
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Sorry but I'm suffering information overload. I can't understand your post. Pick a single question and ask it as briefly as possible.

I will make a few comments I think are relevant.
  • It is okay to connect 12-2 to 10-3 if the breaker is changed to 20 amps.
  • You can have three wires in from a 2-pole 240 breaker (or two handle tied single pole breakers) in and four wires out if it is a multiwire circuit. Each set of wires out is a120 volt circuit.
  • Bathroom receptacles should under current code be on a dedicated circuit but your circuits are probably grandfathered.
  • Nominal voltage is 240v not 220v.
 
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Old 10-31-15, 05:57 PM
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Not only is your post very confusing.... I'm trying to figure out why your electrician is not correcting HIS mistakes ?

Did you kick him off the job ? Was he a relation ? Was he a licensed electrician ?
 
  #4  
Old 11-01-15, 04:45 AM
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E. Circuit Breaker 33/34 220vac to Pool Equip SubPanel.
Besides the fact that the numbering sequence (on the 240v circuits) are not correct. i.e.-Two pole breaker would be 33/35; they run vertically, not horizontally if they are an actual two pole breaker. Unless two single pole breakers were used instead and placed next to each other; against code anyway.
 
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Old 11-01-15, 05:17 AM
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Since you took things apart you will have a harder although not impossible time holding the electrician responsible.

What you wanted to show him was poking your multimeter probes into a standard 120 volt receptacle, still in the wall and with the cover plate on, and reading 240 volts.

For too many things on one breaker you show him light fixtures plugged into several receptacles for which you wanted separate breakers and you flip off the breaker to show all of the lights going out.

For the junction boxes you would want to point out miswiring such as 12 gauge wire on a 30 amp circuit but trying not to pull wires out of the box. Note that 10 gauge wire ultimately serving ordinary lights and 120 volt receptacles with no subpanel in between is limited to a 20 amp breaker regardless of the number of receptacles or the absence of 12 gauge or smaller wire.
 
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Old 11-01-15, 08:38 AM
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(Yes, of course, the guy is crap. Yes, I need to hire a better professional someone else. Yes, I cannot touch or change anything until it is resolved or the evidence is gone. But I feel that simply opening the junction boxes to look is safe (legally). Yes, wires are fine and other things are fine, I will check. Yes, pool pump needs replaced $1,600.)

THE key point That I wish several to confirm here:

If Neutral ANYWHERE has been compromised by attaching a hot, then ALL GFCI circuits (which depend on a clean Neutral) are no longer isolated and CAN interact through the panel. Only GFCI circuits?
Thus attaching A Hot and A Hot from a 240vac circuit (7/8) to a Neutral and a Hot from a 120vac GFCI circuit (31) in a socket box COULD AND WOULD cause issues on a separate 240vac GFCI circuit (33/34) for a pool pump. And could ruin the pump.
True? Seeking a few people to confirm.
Thank you all.
Walt
 
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Old 11-01-15, 08:41 AM
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For now, lets forget about wire sizes and amps per breaker.

For now, lets forget about wire sizes and amps per breaker.
 
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Old 11-01-15, 08:47 AM
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If Neutral ANYWHERE has been compromised by attaching a hot, then ALL GFCI circuits (which depend on a clean Neutral) are no longer isolated and CAN interact through the panel. Only GFCI circuits?
That makes no sense. If you connect a neutral to a hot you trip a breaker are burn up the wire.
Thus attaching A Hot and A Hot from a 240vac circuit (7/8) to a Neutral and a Hot from a 120vac GFCI circuit (31) in a socket box COULD AND WOULD cause issues on a separate 240vac GFCI circuit (33/34) for a pool pump. And could ruin the pump.
It would as stated either trip a breaker in a matter of seconds or if the breaker failed burn a wire into so that sort of connection couldn't exist. I suspect what you are seeing is a muti wire 120 volt circuit fed by a 240 double pole breaker. That is safe and code compliant.

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Last edited by ray2047; 11-01-15 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 11-01-15, 08:47 AM
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If it's a 240v pump then a wiring mistake could only make it run on 120v instead of 240v. There would be no way of blowing it up ? It would sit there and hum if it was connected to 120v.

$1600.00 for a pump ??
 
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Old 11-01-15, 09:09 AM
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Unless you have proof of the wire connections before the electrician made changes, how can you prove he did it? Also, if there is only 120 vac at the pool pump motor now, what proof do you have the motor was ever connected to 249 vac? Good luck with trying to prove whatever your trying to prove.
 
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Old 11-01-15, 11:59 AM
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White Hot off 240vac Leg to White Neutral - Ruined Pool Pump

Here is a diagram that should help. Seeking confirmations that a) this is wrong, and b) this could damage pool pump.

I have not tested voltage at pool pump with 7/8 ON, 31 OFF (tripped), but can if needed.

(yes, I will seek professional to come confirm)
(yes, the pump is $1600)
(lets not worry in this discussion how I will prove things.)
Thanks,
Walt
 
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Old 11-01-15, 12:03 PM
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Old 11-01-15, 12:15 PM
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Old 11-01-15, 12:37 PM
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You diagram shows the pump connected correctly. See notes on diagrams below.

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Request: Please do not include grounds on your diagrams. They are not needed and make the diagrams harder to read.
 
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Old 11-01-15, 01:03 PM
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So your only real problem is the electrician combined a 120v circuit to a 240v circuit in the garage which I still can't understand. Based on your drawing..... nothing would be damaged as the 240v breaker would trip from the neutral connection.

I DO NOT see this wiring problem damaging a 240v pump.
 
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Old 11-01-15, 02:14 PM
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Thanks PJMax and Ray2047. Thank you for confirming that the Subpanel is connected correctly. Thank you for confirming that the Pool Pump is connected correctly.
Big Question: Why did the hot tub circuit breaker pop correctly (not show, but on subpanel), and not the Pool Pump?

I will not include grounds on diagrams next time.
Thank you for confirming that the Garage Socket has erroneously combined the 240vac White Hot with the existing 120vac White Neutral.
 
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Old 11-01-15, 03:14 PM
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Thank you for confirming that the Garage Socket has erroneously combined the 240vac White Hot with the existing 120vac White Neutral
I'm still not sure he did. Please show us a picture of the breaker panel with the cover off.
 
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Old 11-01-15, 03:45 PM
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The diagram shows one leg of breaker 7/8 (did you mean 7/9 ????? ) connecting directly to the neutral of circuit 31. It also shows the hot leg of breaker 31 connecting to the other leg of breaker 7/8.

We don't know if what you have drawn is exactly what you have there but we have to work from what you provided.

What I'm still trying to figure out is why these two circuits were in the same box ?


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  #19  
Old 11-01-15, 04:40 PM
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The only way you're going to be able to figure out exactly what happened and what needs to be done to repair it is to have another qualified electrician come to your property and look at the circuits. Not doubting that your drawings are correct but even a minor error in the drawings or even the type of breakers involved could be the source of your problems. Having everything documented by a different electrician prior to changing anything will certainly help your case.
 
  #20  
Old 11-02-15, 07:45 AM
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From the diagrams I don't see any way the pool pump could have been damaged by the wiring. I suppose maybe the GFCI breaker feeding it might have been damaged, but that would be a long shot and would have nothing to do with the pump itself.

I looked up that pump model and it is so expensive because it has a digital controller and variable frequency drive. Any chance you had a lightning storm recently? VFDs are notorious for getting cooked by electrical storms. Any kind of site wiring fault should have absolutely been cleared by the breakers or (I'm assuming) the pump has an internal fuse on the drive unit control board or power supply. Have you looked for that? The pump also claims it monitors for over voltage, under voltage and over current and will go into fault state, so it should have protected itself in the event of any wiring errors. Lightning, however...or even a manufacturing fault. This may be more of a warranty issue.
 
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Old 11-02-15, 09:36 PM
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Resolved - White Hot To White Neutral

Well Gents, it has been mostly resolved. Thank you to "ibpooks" for the extra info on the pump, as I will dig deeper into the safety mechanism, although Pentair support said there is no additional or internal fuse. Thank you PJmax on additional insights. Based on most people's thoughts that the Pool Pump was likely not in harms way from the electrical issues, I had the "electrician" come fix what he had done.
He was indeed wrong, and my diagram was correct, except that it was only 120vac crossed. He had removed a hot from the 7/8 breaker to get to 120vac and run it to an outlet. At that outlet he had erroneously not disconnected the original power from 31.
Done. Pair of New 20amp breakers, rewired, and no cost to me accept my 3 hours of "assistance"
Pool Pump will have to be considered coincidence by storm, lightning, or other surge.
Thanks to all.
 
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Old 11-02-15, 09:42 PM
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Glad you got it fixed. Thanks for letting us know.
 
 

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