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Replacing old stove - do I need to rewire for the new one?

Replacing old stove - do I need to rewire for the new one?

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  #1  
Old 12-27-15, 02:51 PM
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Replacing old stove - do I need to rewire for the new one?

New poster here, so if I am breaking rules or etiquette please let me know!

I've looked at some other threads here with similar situations and I think I know the answer already but would like to be sure, esp. when I have to explain to the wife it may be a few days before the new stove is hooked up.

So the question is do I need/should I replace the wire for the new stove?

Info overload starts now:

The old range was a jenn air S105 (I wish they still made them like this - great appliance). Worked fine, but we've had some mice sneak in this year and when I pulled it out I was startled at the amount of damage they had done to the wiring on top of the usual mouse related nastiness. So with the range out I removed the downdraft motor & sealed the floor off where the mice had been coming up and off to our local sears store we went.

The new unit is a freestanding range to tide us over until the full remodel down the road. it is a Kenmore 94153

Sears.com

New stove install pdf here http://c.shld.net/assets/misc/spin_prod_740547112.pdf

The current wire (3 wire, black, white & bare) goes directly from the service panel to the kitchen and was directly wire to the jenn air.

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If I need new wire I could remove the existing and run it to that same service panel which is about 30ft away, but...could I also wire it to a subpanel that has an existing, but unused 240 40 amp circuit (it used to run a blower on a geothermal install that was removed before we bought the place)? Sorry no pic of the sub handy, but I can get one if it helps.

Anything special I need to consider if doing that? The reason I ask is that there is a sub panel in the crawl space directly beneath the stove in the kitchen which would mean a lot less wire, and greater ease of install as the crawlspace is much taller in that area.

Thanks in advance for any & all feedback.
 
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  #2  
Old 12-27-15, 03:06 PM
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Tell the wife the cable you have was not even code compliant for the old setup if it was 120/240. The bare ground in NM-b can not be used as a neutral. It is definitely not code compliant for the new stove.

I didn't see the amp rating in the PDF but since you say there is an upgrade in the future I'd go ahead now and wire it with 6-3 NM-b on a 50 amp 2-pole breaker. You can come from either panels. Just come from whichever is easiest. Since that is the subpanel just replace the 40 amp breaker with a 50 amp breaker.
 
  #3  
Old 12-27-15, 03:16 PM
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The Range specs at Sears say 40 amp circuit min, but I second Ray's suggestion to put in a 50 amp circuit.

You can direct wire or you can install the appropriate 50 AMP 4 conductor receptacle and a attach a matching cord set to the range. I suggest the latter as it makes it easy to move the range for cleaning.

You will have to remove the ground strap between ground and neutral on the range since you will be using 4 wire circuit (two hots, neutral, and ground). Instructions for that are in the PDF.
 
  #4  
Old 12-27-15, 03:47 PM
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Thanks guys - I really appreciate the feedback!
 
  #5  
Old 12-27-15, 07:47 PM
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The picture looks like 10-2 NM cable. Not only was it never a code compliant range circuit, it was also both a safety and a fire hazard.
 
  #6  
Old 12-28-15, 06:40 PM
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So picked up a small section of 6-3 NM-b and got it run to the stove area, then I went and opened up the sub-panel...

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Single combined ground/neutral bar

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Service coming from the main panel, white goes back to a combined bar in the main panel.

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There is yet another sub in the garage and it has two hots & a ground (no neutral) running to it from the main. [no pics right now]

So thoughts as to how I should proceed from here? Time to pull a new wire between the main & the sub & add a grounding bar kit? All feedback greatly appreciated.
 
  #7  
Old 12-28-15, 07:50 PM
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Service coming from the main panel, white goes back to a combined bar in the main panel.
You need 4 wires to feed the first subpanel. If the feeder is NM-B cable you have 4 wires and just need to add the ground bar kit and move the ground wires to the ground bar and remove the bonding screw from the neutral bus.

There is yet another sub in the garage and it has two hots & a ground (no neutral) running to it from the main. [no pics right now]
Again, you need 4 wires to a subpanel. That feeder to the garage subpanel needs to be replaced.
 
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Old 12-28-15, 07:57 PM
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The picture looks like 10-2 NM cable.
I am backing off my earlier statement, the cable is probably 8-2 NM-B cable. didn't notice the stranded conductors.
 
  #9  
Old 12-29-15, 06:38 AM
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Before you add the 50 amp breaker to sub panel,what size is the cable and breaker feeding that panel?
 
  #10  
Old 12-29-15, 07:24 AM
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I prefer to keep the heavy loads like the stove in the main panel.
 
  #11  
Old 12-29-15, 08:15 AM
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The current wire is 6/3 NM (without ground). It is a 60 amp breaker at the main, and the run is aprox 35 ft.
 
  #12  
Old 12-29-15, 08:19 AM
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pcboss - prefer as in this is could be a real hazard running it to the sub?
 
  #13  
Old 12-29-15, 08:26 AM
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Are you sure the ground isn't cut off close to the jacket?
 
  #14  
Old 12-29-15, 08:42 AM
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I double checked, no such luck. According to the markings on the box the panel was installed in 1986.
 
  #15  
Old 12-29-15, 08:47 AM
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Not that dangerous and probably grandfathered. How hard would it be for you to run either a single wire or cable to the sub?
 
  #16  
Old 12-29-15, 08:57 AM
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I can do it. I am not going to lie it gets a little tight in the crawlspace as you approach the main but I can suck it up.

I was assuming I would have to get a new 4 wire cable - can I get a properly sheathed single wire to run back for the ground, without having to run conduit?
 
  #17  
Old 12-29-15, 09:07 AM
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It is just more capacity in the main panel. The load on the sub needs to stay below the rating of the breaker feeding the sub.

I am surprised the cable from 86 did not have a ground. Running a new ground along side the existing cable is almost as much work as running a new cable with a ground.
 
  #18  
Old 12-29-15, 10:24 AM
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Ok guys, another quick thought/question...

The more I look at it the more I wonder about the whole system in the house, with the previously mentioned sub issues and the new mention of load calculations (the sub in question already runs to the furnace, a steamer in the mbr, my wife's studio - which runs a small kiln, normal home office equip, lights etc., as well as the media center in the living room - large screen TV, stereo, computer)

I am currently thinking of just running the new wire for the stove back to the main, which will relieve a major point of current (pardon the pun) household stress, and then coming back to the forum with a brand new thread starting at the service entrance/main and going over everything and fixing it over the next few weekends, or if beyond me getting on the schedule with an electrician. Ok idea, or is this a I need to address everything today kind of issue with the current state of the sub panels?

Thanks yet again.
 
  #19  
Old 12-29-15, 11:20 AM
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Did I miss where you wrote the size breaker feeding the sub? From what you write you might just want to come from the main. As stated the sub may be grandfathered. there are tens of thousands out there wired that way.
http://www.nojolt.com/load_calculations.shtml
You could do a load calc for the subpanel.
 
  #20  
Old 12-29-15, 11:35 AM
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60 amp feeding the sub, I'll do a load calc on it this afternoon. Thanks for the link. Not really worried about code, we don't have inspections here; but presuming that bringing it up to the code is also the safest route I would like to do it, just not all at once.
 
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