Siemens type QP breaker in a Homeline panel

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  #1  
Old 02-13-16, 03:02 PM
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Siemens type QP breaker in a Homeline panel

So, I have been doing my kitchen over and decided to add a dishwasher. I ran a new outlet for the unit, making sure to get a Homeline square D just like my panel says. My panel is actually a sub panel that is run from the garage, done approximately 5 years ago. I noticed that the sub panel panel has a 200 amp Siemens QP for supply the house from the garage. Is that okay? This was work done by a reputable company and was inspected by 2 different inspectors, who signed off on it. It's a double pole, and compared to the new square D I just put in, it doesn't even seem to be sitting flush in the breaker. Why would they do this instead of putting in a square D? Not sure what to do.
 
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  #2  
Old 02-13-16, 03:14 PM
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That is something that a lot of inspectors don't worry about. Others go ballistic. Technically you are to follow the instructions.

Post pics of the panel and the label and we can review.
 
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Old 02-13-16, 03:17 PM
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Welcome to the forums.

The number one reason is cost.
Technically it should be replaced with a Sq. D Homeline breaker.
 
  #4  
Old 02-13-16, 04:29 PM
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Or they didn't have it on the truck. My inspector won't sign off if the breakers aren't of the type listed on the enclosure door. It's probably fine.... the worry is if the blades that engage the buss bars aren't the right size to have enough contact area and tension, then you could get higher contact resistance and more heat generation. No real way to figure out if it's a problem in your case or not.

Probably a $50-75 breaker.
 
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Old 02-13-16, 06:46 PM
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I noticed that the sub panel panel has a 200 amp Siemens QP for supply the house from the garage.
The Square D Homeline subpanel has a 200 amp Siemens breaker in it? Are you sure the 200 amp breaker isn't in the garage main panel to supply the Square D subpanel?

Regardless of the particulars, Siemens breakers are not UL Listed for use in a Square D panel and shouldn't be there. Any competent inspector should know this and shouldn't have passed the inspection. I am not saying this would cause a fire, but should you have a fire the insurance inspectors could always blame this as the cause of the fire and turn down your claim. Some insurance companies have a reputation for wiggling out of major claims.
 
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Old 02-14-16, 05:30 AM
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@Op, did you mean a 20 amp breaker?
 
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Old 02-16-16, 05:01 PM
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Here is a picture of the circuit breakers
 
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Old 02-16-16, 05:15 PM
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That is 100A not 200A. Having 2, 100A breakers tied is not 200A. It is just 2 pole (240V) 100A.

I see 2 things wrong with it. Having Siemens breaker inside Homeline is wrong as you guessed. Also, there should be a bolt through the breaker to secure it when it is back feed like you have right now.

Are you sure that is a main breaker? Not something that is feeding another sub-panel elsewhere?
The reason I'm asking is I see a thicker cable (probably 2AWG?) attached on ground bus bar and also main lugs on top.
That will be your main feeding to the panel. You don't need main breaker in sub panel if it is within same building.

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This should be main feed to the panel.

What size breaker is feed to this panel from your main breaker panel?
If you are 100% sure that 100A breaker is main breaker for the panel, then you need to find out what those other thicker wires are for, because now that will be wrong.

Wrong breaker in the panel usually don't cause problem as long as it fits tight. But I'd change it just to be safe. Worst case scenario is house catching fire at night while you are sleeping.
 
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Old 02-16-16, 05:19 PM
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A reputable company should come back and install the correct breaker. What they did is not correct. Hopefully the bus where the breaker attaches is not damaged. If it is the d bus and or panel will need replacement.
 
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Old 02-16-16, 06:44 PM
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So it's a little confusing to write out, but my garage has the main service panel. My garage is fairly new. This panel is in the basement of my very old house and is supplied by the panel in the garage. The breaker in question then goes to yet another sub panel that is upstairs and has most of the houses circuits: furnace, well pump, kitchen, etcetera. So yes this panel does have a sub panel from it that supplies everything except my new dishwasher, which I installed the Homeline 20 amp for. This panel also has a standby whole house generator connected to it.
 
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Old 02-16-16, 07:13 PM
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The generator interlock should be at the first panel, not a downstream panel.
 
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Old 02-16-16, 08:18 PM
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So yes this panel does have a sub panel
Ok. That is perfectly fine. Just replace breaker with correct Square D Homeline breaker.

This panel also has a standby whole house generator connected to it.
By "this panel" do you mean sub panel in basement or do you mean sub panel in upstairs?
If you mean sub panel in basement, this is not ok. You don't have main breaker in this panel, which means you cannot have interlock.
If you mean sub panel in upstairs, if it does have main breaker and it is interlocked with feed from the generator, it is ok. It just won't be able to supply power to other panels.

In any case, you must have interlock that will cut feed to the panel when generator breaker is on. Otherwise, you can have serious accident.
 
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Old 02-17-16, 09:20 AM
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Size:  21.2 KB this is what is next to the basement panel coming from the genny and then goes to the panel with the questionable Siemens breaker. I assume this conforms to the safety you were talking about regarding interlock. I would have mentioned it before, but I was trying to keep it simple in regards to my question about that Siemens breaker. So can I go to Home Depot, get a square d 100 amp and be comfortable that my house won't burn down. I don't know what to do about the electrician, rather they didn't get away with this but at the same time don't really want to have anything to do with them anymore
 
  #14  
Old 02-17-16, 10:26 AM
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I assume this conforms to the safety you were talking about regarding interlock.
That is not a interlock. But looks like automatic transfer switch instead.
Interlock is used for manual transfer switch and what it does is simply keeping main and generator breakers from turned on at the same time.
In your picture, both breakers are on, but there probably is a automatic transfer switch inside that panel. Otherwise it is very dangerous.

So can I go to Home Depot, get a square d 100 amp and be comfortable that my house won't burn down.
Yes. Just be sure there is no damage to the bus bar from using wrong breaker. It is unlikely, but possible.
 
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Old 02-17-16, 10:43 AM
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The reason I'm asking is I see a thicker cable (probably 2AWG?) attached on ground bus bar and also main lugs on top.
The black wire with the yellow stripe generally designates this as a neutral conductor and is usually a Type USE conductor (an entirely separate issue). Is this the neutral conductor from the transfer switch, if so, it should be terminated on the neutal bus and not on the ground bar. There should be a total of 4 wires feeding the transfer switch from the main panel in the garage and there should also be 4 wires between the transfer switch and this Homeline subpanel.
 
  #16  
Old 02-17-16, 01:51 PM
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Size:  40.2 KB maybe this pic gives a better representation of what is coming from the auto transfer switch
 
  #17  
Old 02-18-16, 09:33 AM
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It appears that 4-wire URD was used between the transfer switch and the Homeline subpanel and the normally neutral conductor is used as the ground. The only issue I really see now is that this is Type USE wiring being used indoors.
 
  #18  
Old 02-19-16, 08:07 AM
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After googling USE wire, I am guessing they used this because main power is coming from the detached garage via buried conduit. I think that settles everything then except the breaker, which I already bought and will be installing soon. Thank you everyone !
 
  #19  
Old 02-21-16, 01:16 PM
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The issue with URD is by NEC it's not allowed to be installed inside the house. It should be terminated outside. URD with USE rated insulation is not fire resistant.
 
  #20  
Old 02-22-16, 08:17 AM
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If the USE also carries an XHHW or RHW mark, then it's OK indoors. If it is only marked USE or URD that is for exterior use only.
 
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Old 02-22-16, 11:35 AM
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URD is not an insulation type, it's an assembled cable. URD is "Underground Residential Distribution" and the insulation rating is usually only USE-2. MHF (Mobile Home Feeder) which is also an assembled cable carries ratings of RHH/RHW-2/USE-2 and can be installed inside. You can get individual wires of RHH/RHW-2/USE-2 or XHHW-2.
 
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