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Old 2 wire or Old 2 cable to new 2 Cable Wire/G. Switch, receptacle, light & fan

Old 2 wire or Old 2 cable to new 2 Cable Wire/G. Switch, receptacle, light & fan

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  #1  
Old 03-30-16, 12:28 AM
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Old 2 wire or Old 2 cable to new 2 Cable Wire/G. Switch, receptacle, light & fan

Old house with 75% old tube and 25% updated to new. Part of the new included a new can and was done by an electrician, but the rest is a mess.

Bathroom was redone a while ago with 2 cable/G, but owner cut the grounds. There is a switch, receptacle and a light. I just added a small exhaust fan, but haven't finished wiring it yet. The receptacle was not a GFI. have no pics, but it wouldn't change anything to be able to see. I forgot to look in the attic to see if the new Cable connects to 2 separate wires or to a 2 wire cable. It is a huge mess up there at the moment. I want to install a GFI and daisy chain the fan after the light. I do not know how to do this with the wires in the walls as it stands.

Switch. Two 2 cable/G comes out of the switch.. grounds cut on each. Wire #1 black goes to bottom of switch. #1 white goes to wire nut. Wire #2 black goes to same wire nut. #2 white goes to top of switch.

Receptacle. Two 2 cable/G comes out of the receptacle.. grounds cut. Wire #1 goes to top of plugin white one side black on the other. Wire #2 goes to the bottom of the plugin white one side black on the other.

Light. One 2 cable/G.. ground cut. Wired proper except for ground.

Fan. One 2cable/G ran to light not wired in yet.

On the Switch I do not know which cable is the power and which goes over to the receptacle. On the Receptacle I do believe I can tell which comes from the switch and which goes to the light.

I cut one of the top wires on the receptacle and the light went out so if I understand correctly that is the Line wire. The bottom is then the Load.

All wires are 12-2-G except for the new wire from the fan.. it is 14-2-G.

I'm disabled and extremely tired so I hope this is worded correctly. I know that if all is hooked up correctly in the bathroom the GFI will not be operational until I locate the power cable in the attic from the bathroom and get it grounded, but I need to know how to run this with out tearing out the drywall if possible. (I want to know how to run this even if I tear out the drywall)

Is it ok to leave the 14-2 cable from the fan instead of making it 12-2? Never quite understood that as the wires from the fan are smaller than the 14-2. Likewise the wires from the light are much smaller than the 12-2.

Thanks Much
 
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  #2  
Old 03-30-16, 02:04 AM
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National code says all new circuits must meet current code. Since an ungrounded circuit has no ground and new circuits require a ground ungrounded circuits can't be extended. Even if you could somehow connect to the cut off ground it is unlikely it is connected to a ground on the other end.

Lights and fans are not usually required to be on a GFCI and in fact it is considered best not to have a light on a GFCI. That way you are not left in the dark if the GFCI trips.

Current code requires that bathroom receptacles be on a 20 amp grounded GFCI receptacle but older installation are grandfathered till you make significant changes such as adding or moving receptacles and lights. Then they must meet current code.
Is it ok to leave the 14-2 cable from the fan instead of making it 12-2
Only if it is on a 15 amp breaker.
the wires from the fan are smaller than the 14-2.
Fixture wire size is based on different rules than house wiring. That is partly do to the nature of the insulation used on those wires.

To do what you want the simplest is unfortunately to run a new cable from the breaker box. if as you seem to say there is an unfinished attic above this can be done usually without opening the walls.

Post back with any unanswered questions and what you want to do and we will try to walk you through it.
 
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Old 03-30-16, 10:10 AM
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Unfortunately you have a real mess and Ray has given advice about those. However , the GFCI does not need a ground to operate. Until you can get this straightened out you can still have the GFCI protection.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 03-30-16 at 01:24 PM. Reason: girls>GFCI
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Old 03-31-16, 01:16 AM
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Thanks for the info. I have to rush this and will come back in one or two days.

It's code to have junction boxes in the attic right?
 
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Old 03-31-16, 07:17 AM
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Junction boxes can be in the attic as long as they are accessible.
 
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Old 04-01-16, 03:31 AM
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I didn't mention this, but I feel I should.. there is no one living in this house and no one will until I feel it is all safe.

I am helping my GF out with this as her father passed and left some houses with many problems. He did 100% of everything himself. He had a real bad case of the "I used to be able to buy that for a quarter" syndrome .. prices go up and then having to pay labor for things equaled just let it go.

Since an ungrounded circuit has no ground and new circuits require a ground ungrounded circuits can't be extended. Even if you could somehow connect to the cut off ground it is unlikely it is connected to a ground on the other end.
I can get to each cut off ground there is extra wire. The switch is tight, but there are no pig tails on anything so a pigtail should work out fine. Original plan was to find other end in attic and be able to find a ground for it.. last was running a new cable.

Lights and fans are not usually required to be on a GFCI and in fact it is considered best not to have a light on a GFCI. That way you are not left in the dark if the GFCI trips.
Good point would like to do that.

I switched out the 14-2 from the fan for the 12-2.

if as you seem to say there is an unfinished attic above this can be done usually without opening the walls.
This is a very small old house that had a new kitchen added on many years ago. They also extended the basement under the kitchen. The attic access is only to the original house and someone even changed part of that as one side of an old roof is in the attic. Tuff place up there. There is no attic access above the kitchen. The bath I have been working on is also an extension so there is very little room above it. The biggest problem is the new can is in the basement under the kitchen. Some of the new wires run up to the old can inside the original house on the main floor, then on up to the attic where its a Huge Mess.

Have pics hope they come out ok. New panel in basement under kitchen.


Old Panel on main floor.

Old Panel close up. Much worse than pic. Green wires open. Inside Right above panel old live wires with wire nuts. To much to say here.


Right above Old panel in attic. Newer wires coming out and much more.


Attic

Attic

Attic

There are many more wires running across attic floor with open wire nuts. A huge mess.

Every breaker in new panel is 20amp except for AC etc.

Good news I had to cut a access hole in bathroom for vent on fan and found out how all the wires run. Power goes to bottom of receptacle, then from top it goes to the switch, then over to light. So I need the proper way to change the receptacle to the GFI and keep the light and fan separate. Nothing will be hooked up till a new homerun is run from the can to the attic.

Extreme tired and late. Looks like almost a total redo.

Thanks again.
 
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Old 04-02-16, 02:45 AM
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Have to make a quick correction. GF's dad couldnt have done the wiring mess in the attic as he was to big to fit up there.

As soon as I get the new cable run I will be back. Thanks Much
 
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Old 04-08-16, 01:01 AM
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Have decided to rerun most of the wire in this house..just to much of a mess in the attic to try to straighten out. Have not run anything new yet. Gonna switch to finishing bathroom to get toilet back in.. much more important GF says

Question is can I use the old panel Pics #2 and #3 on the main floor as a junction box? All wires going Down from the old panel are going to the new panel and are new. I could then run cable up to attic from the old panel. Can change old panel to "other" if needed. Can also change the outer door in pic #2 if that is a problem in any way.

If able to use old panel or other in some way. There are two flex conduits running from basement new up to old panel. EACH conduit has 3 white wires, 2 black , 1 red and 1 green. Can I switch out the red wire for a black (red has a cap on it and not used) and then run some grounds up to make the switch over to cable? Can you use bare grounds in the flex conduit?

Do not understand why someone would run this with only 2 grounds run up.

Thanks much
 
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Old 04-08-16, 02:50 AM
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Question is can I use the old panel Pics #2 and #3 on the main floor as a junction box?
Yes.
Can also change the outer door in pic #2 if that is a problem in any way.
I'd fasten it with screws and label the outside, "Junction box, no breakers".
There are two flex conduits running from basement new up to old panel. EACH conduit has 3 white wires, 2 black , 1 red and 1 green. Can I switch out the red wire for a black (red has a cap on it and not used)
No need to change out. Any color but white, gray, or green is an acceptable color for an ungrounded conductor (AKA a hot wire) Different colors (black, red, blue, yellow, etc.) are used to identify hots of different circuits.

Only one ground sized to the highest amp circuit is needed per conduit.
Can you use bare grounds in the flex conduit?
Usually green insulated wire is used.
 
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Old 04-08-16, 10:46 AM
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There is no need to put an additional splice in the new wirng. Just run the cablessings past the old panel and avoid a splice.
 
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Old 11-28-17, 12:27 AM
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Not sure if I am supposed to come back to an old thread like this.

The trust closed and I never got a chance to finish any of the work, but i did learn and really appreciate the help!

Thanks Guys
 
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