Shed & Pool Wiring Advice

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  #1  
Old 05-07-16, 05:41 PM
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Shed & Pool Wiring Advice

Hello ! Long time lurker, first time poster.

First- I know I'll catch slack for this one... I ran 10/3 (20amp single throw) from my main panel in the basement, (62' worth) and then out the back corner, dropped it down 18" and about 28' to my shed. All through 1/2" PVC. Looking back, I can't believe I did it, but I did. I know I sealed the connections everywhere.

So with that said, the wire comes into the shed, switched, then to GFCI outlet and then a few others throughout the shed, plus an outside light, and switch to other lights. I seldom run anything in the shed other than a bench grinder and trickle charger for my sons four-wheeler. I used 14/3 throughout the shed, but looking back thinking I should have used 12 ?

Here's the question. Yes, I should have not used PVC. Go ahead, give it to me.

We are adding an above ground pool, 24' diameter, 52" depth. I'm torn on running an entirely new line from the main panel to power the pump, or trying to use the existing 10/3 that I have entering my shed. Pool to shed is about 15' and knowing I'd have to have an outlet within 5-6' of the pool edge, I was thinking of running underground line to a 4x4 post, mounting the outlet on the post.

My thought was, at the GFCI outlet, run 12/2 back down and bury it to the post? Could I continue to use the GFCI from there with the 14/3 for the other outlets?

Can someone give me thoughts, ideas, professional or DIY'er ... even give me the beating I deserve for the PVC. I know I have the skillset to do this, just need the right guidance to ensure it's done correctly.

Yes, permit for the construction of pool and wiring has been pulled and pool goes in on Monday. I was planning to start the wiring and stuff within a week.

Thank you all in advance !
 
  #2  
Old 05-07-16, 06:37 PM
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Welcome to your first thread. I apologize in advance but there is just no way for me to respond without being somewhat critical.

I ran 10/3
Do you really mean 10-2 (black, white, ground)? I presume you mean cable since that is implied by "10-3". Was it NMb (AKA Romex) or was it UF cable?
Could I continue to use the GFCI from there with the 14/3 for the other outlets
You would use 2-conductor not 3-conductor cable for receptacles. Since you used a 20 amp breaker you were never allowed to use #14. That hasn't changed but either the cable or breaker does need to be changed.

Wiring a pool because of safety issues requires skills that seem to be above your level. I would suggest you call an electrician. If you don't want to call an electrician then the first thing is to fix the shed wiring then run a separate feed to the pool. Note cable can not be used for a pool because it contains a bare ground. Ground to an outdoor pool must be insulated.

An alternative is to remove the cable to the shed and run individual conductors for a subpanel at the shed. You could then run the pool wiring from the shed.
 
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Old 05-07-16, 07:06 PM
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The pool is also going to require bonding in addition to the other work. Tell us about the pool type and depth.
 
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Old 05-07-16, 07:39 PM
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24' round, 54" tall. 9" resin top rails.
Namco.

I'm dreading the trenching around to do the bonding, but at least it doesn't have to be very deep for the #8 wire.
 
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Old 05-07-16, 07:46 PM
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Thank you. I can handle the criticism, no worries.

10/3... this is #10, Red,White,Black and Ground wire.
14/3... it's really #14 2-conductor, my apologies.

So with the 20amp breaker, the inside wiring of the shed should have been #12 correct?

I know the wiring #10 thru the 1/2" PVC isn't correct or to NEC specs, and I was honestly okay with this until I started thinking about the addition of the pool.


Could I keep the #10 that's already in the panel, maybe swap the 20amp to a 30amp?
And then run the correct wire from the house, underground to the shed... vs starting from scratch?
 
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Old 05-07-16, 07:50 PM
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I would need to check to see if the feeder to the shed needs an insulated ground if it feeds the pool.
 
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Old 05-07-16, 07:58 PM
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10/3... this is #10, Red,White,Black and Ground wire.
Does it have an orange outer sheathing or are these individual conductors?
 
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Old 05-07-16, 08:01 PM
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Does it have an orange outer sheathing or are these individual conductors?
Yes, it has an orange outer sheathing.
 
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Old 05-07-16, 08:21 PM
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I know the wiring #10 thru the 1/2" PVC isn't correct or to NEC specs, and I was honestly okay with this until I started thinking about the addition of the pool.
That orange cable is 10-3 w/ground NM-b. It cannot be pulled thru conduit for outside work. It's not rated for wet locations. Underground in PVC is a wet location.

1/2" conduit is rated for five #10 THWN conductors.
 

Last edited by PJmax; 05-08-16 at 10:19 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 05-07-16, 08:28 PM
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Yes, it has an orange outer sheathing
Then it can't be used in a wet location. Buried conduit is a wet location and you can't use NMb in it. Best practice of course is to use individual wires not cable in conduit but you could have used UF though how you could have pulled #10 UF in " conduit is beyond me. Since the cable must be removed anyway you may want to replace the cable with individual wires for a subpanel at the shed and run to the pool from the subpanel.
Could I keep the #10 that's already in the panel, maybe swap the 20amp to a 30amp?
Even if you had used UF cable you couldn't unless you installed a sub panel at the shed.

Your choice of conduit size will limit you to a 30 amp subpanel. How many amps do you need for the pool.
 
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Old 05-07-16, 08:36 PM
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Understood, and honestly was expecting most of these responses... so not disappointed really.

New plan below and please correct me if I'm wrong.
*remove wiring in the basement and panel.
*start new individual wire from the panel, thru basement, thru house, bury accordingly.
*new sub-panel inside shed.
*two breakers inside panel, one for shed one for pool.

Can I get recommendation on wire, amp breaker for main and sub panel breakers? I really don't run much at all inside the shed, but of course would want to plan for future expansion just in case.

Long shot here... and saw various suggestions already... is it possible to re-use the 1/2" PVC for the individual wires, or should it be 3/4" ?

Thank you all so much.
 
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Old 05-07-16, 08:51 PM
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Just came back to offer a plan but your plan is very similar.

I was going to suggest you can keep the " conduit and 14-2 in the shed. " conduit is rated for five #10 so four # 10 is doable. That would give you a 30 amp feed to a subpanel in the shed (assuming less than 150' one way).

The 14-2 you wired the shed with can be put on a 15 amp breaker. We do need the amp requirements for the pool before we can say for sure but you should have enough power. If they offer a 240 volt pool pump as an option I'd suggest take it if this is the way you want to go.

There are lots more details. I'll go over them if this is what you want to do.
 
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Old 05-08-16, 09:58 AM
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(assuming less than 150' one way).
Yes sir, it's less than 150' one way.

The 14-2 you wired the shed with can be put on a 15 amp breaker.
Love this idea, and I wouldn't have to rewire any of the existing outlets and outside light.

We do need the amp requirements for the pool before we can say for sure but you should have enough power. If they offer a 240 volt pool pump as an option I'd suggest take it if this is the way you want to go.
Pump is a 2hp, 115 Volt. There really isn't much information about it.
SF Amps - 13.3/4.1 PH 1 DUTY CONT (not sure what this means honestly).

The plug from the pump is the push in, twist/lock. Verbiage said the conductor wires must be #12/2 AWG to the outlet for the pump, and only copper conductors of course.

Any help with details is so much appreciated.

Given the outlet to the pump must be GFI protected, what would be the best option with this? On the 4x4 post, I was thinking one external switch, then GFI outlet, then single outlet for the pump?
Both outlets would have to be in weatherproof connectors and the pump outlet would have to be sealed while in use of course. The GFI outlet in between the pump outlet and switch could serve as an extra for misc I guess.
 
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Old 05-08-16, 12:02 PM
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If you are running from the shed you would use a 20 amp GFCI breaker to feed the pump receptacle. You would use #12 THWN individual wires in half inch PVC conduit, white, black, green to the post. In use covers required at the post.

The new subpanel can be a 60 amp main lug panel with space for six circuits. The panel will usually not come with a ground bar. You will need to buy and install one.

You will need at least one "x8' ground rod. It will be connected to the ground bar of subpanel by a #6 copper wire. In addition all other grounds will go only to the ground bar including the #10 green ground wire from the main panel.

The neutral bar in the panel will be isolated. If there is a bonding screw or strap it must be removed. Only neutral wires to the neutral bar.

From the house in the conduit you run two black (or one each red and black) #10 THWN copper, one white #10 THWN copper, and one green #10 copper THWN.

Conduit must be a continuous run.
 
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Old 05-08-16, 08:10 PM
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Conduit must be a continuous run.
Can you elaborate on this one please?

Clarifying the main panel to sub panel...
Remove existing wiring completely.
Most likely I'm envisioning having to remove the existing buried conduit as I don't think the wire is going to pull out of there.

#10 THWN Red, Black, White, Green (all solid copper), from the main panel, routed thru basement, thru house, bury 18" in conduit to shed. Would I have to run conduit throughout basement as well to the panel? Seems like a silly question but I'm assuming I would.


Thank you in advance !
 
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Old 05-08-16, 08:23 PM
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Continuous simply means no gaps where there is no conduit.
Would I have to run conduit throughout basement as well to the panel
You could use cable, 10-3 NMb, if it is protected then transition in a 4x4 junction box to conduit and individual wires where it leaves the house. Protected can mean run higher than 7'6".
Most likely I'm envisioning having to remove the existing buried conduit as I don't think the wire is going to pull out of there.
" was really to small for the cable you ran. I'd go back with no less than " or one inch so if in the future you need more power it will be an easy change. Right now you are limited to 30 amps because of conduit size. I
 
  #17  
Old 05-09-16, 06:21 AM
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You need the subpanel in the shed to protect the 14 gauge wiring out there at 15 amps (and protect other lights and ordinary receptacles at 20 amps), or else you will need to limit the feed all the way back at the house panel using a 15 amp breaker.

Ordinarily only one feed (most efficiently has two hots, neutral, and ground) is permitted between any two buildings. But if the pool is not actually adjacent to the shed then the pool is allowed to have its own feed, for example if the shed's feed cannot supply enough amperes.

OT: Is there any way to retrofit an existing pool to have mechanized filter, etc. without breaking up the perimeter deck to install the bonding grid underneath? For example is there such a thing as flat conductors (physically) bonded (no pun intended) to the concrete deck surface?
 

Last edited by AllanJ; 05-09-16 at 06:55 AM.
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Old 05-09-16, 07:41 AM
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Wow!10-3 through 1/2" PVC,that must have been a trip,use at least 3/4"or 1" while your at it, if you use 1" install a 4 11/16 Sq . J box that would have 1" KO's in it,install it inside to make the change over from your cable, and install a 30 amp breaker in the main panel.
 
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Old 05-24-16, 04:43 PM
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Update !
Removed all old wiring and 1/2" PVC.

Had to dig my trench a little deeper actually as I was only down about 15".

I'm a full 18" down, 1" PVC to the shed.
I have four #10 connected at my j box, out to a 1" PVC.
I even used expansion joints at the house and entrance to the shed... figured it can't hurt and I'd hate to do it all again in the future.

I rewired some of the outlets and switches as I wasn't happy with my previous work.

Here's my dilemma now... the sub-panel picture and wiring diagram is below.

Main Panel - I am only using the Black, White, Copper (Red is capped)
At junction box, I connected:
black - black
white - white
red - red (even tho not using)
copper - green.

Inside the shed, I now have the four wires ready to go the panel... I think and help me out here...

Black goes to both A & B
White goes to N (ground bar)
Copper goes to N as well ?


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Old 05-24-16, 04:58 PM
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Black goes to both A & B
No. One hot to A and one hot to B.
Copper goes to N as well ?
No. You need to buy and install a ground bar. Bare goes to the ground bar.

Not sure what you did but black and red should be connected to a two pole 30 amp breaker at the house.

Also remember you can not use cable to the pool receptacle because it must be fed with an insulated ground wire and cable is bare.
 
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Old 05-24-16, 05:24 PM
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The panel did come with a separate ground bar actually, just didn't see it in the box for some reason.

Side note, the electrical inspector called me to set up an appointment for Thursday.. he says I don't need a grounding rod from the sub-panel. I've read that I do, so I'm confused on this one.

The 10/3 w ground Cable that I have coming from my main... I didn't use the red at all when I ran this wire several years ago. Only used the black/white/ground.

I need to connect the red in the main to a two pole 30amp, and again just haven't updated that.

Inside the sub panel:
black to A
red to B
white to N neutral
Green to ground

I think I got this.

FYI from the shed, I ran 12-2 out of the panel (not connected yet) through the inside of the shed, to J box, connecting individual wires thru 1" PVC to 4x4 post. Not connected the outlet yet on the post.
 
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Old 05-24-16, 06:20 PM
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The panel did come with a separate ground bar
They don't. You have to buy one.
he[electrical inspector] says I don't need a grounding rod from the sub-panel.
According to the NEC you do.
I ran 12-2 out of the panel (not connected yet) through the inside of the shed, to J box, connecting individual wires thru 1" PVC to 4x4 post. Not connected the outlet yet on the post.
Good because you can't use cable to a pool because it doesn't have an insulated ground. You need to run THWN, white, black, green.

I would put in a ground rod even if the inspector is ill informed. You will need #6 to the ground rod. In the subpanel the GEC, EGC and branch circuits go to the ground bar. The neutral bar can not be bonded to the box.

Not sure but it looks like you may have used the holes for the ground bar to fasten the box. I hope you didn't mess up the threads.Ground bar must be connected with machine thread screws.

Just a refresher on the instructions we gave you.

PCBoss wrote:
I would need to check to see if the feeder to the shed needs an insulated ground if it feeds the pool.
Then I wrote:
The new subpanel can be a 60 amp main lug panel with space for six circuits. The panel will usually not come with a ground bar. You will need to buy and install one.

You will need at least one "x8' ground rod. It will be connected to the ground bar of subpanel by a #6 copper wire. In addition all other grounds will go only to the ground bar including the #10 green ground wire from the main panel.
And I wrote:
conduit and individual wires where it leaves the house.
I wrote that because it was going to be used to supply a pool where an insulated ground is usually required. See PCBoss' comment above.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 05-24-16 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 05-25-16, 02:34 PM
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new issue...

The sub panel box that I purchased from Lowes, said 60amp.
Just now realizing the sub panel is a 125amp unit and not the unit that was supposed to be in the box.

Maybe a customer returned the wrong one, or did some fraudulent thing..

I'm assuming I need to remove this and get the 60amp as I don't believe I can run 125 amp on the four #10 wires, off of a double pole 30amp breaker?

 
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Old 05-25-16, 03:00 PM
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A 125 amp is fine. The 125 only refers to the maximum amperage it can be supplied with. It is not uncommon for a subpanel to have an amperage rating in excess of the supplying breaker.
 
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Old 05-25-16, 03:20 PM
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A 125 amp is fine. The 125 only refers to the maximum amperage it can be supplied with. It is not uncommon for a subpanel to have an amperage rating in excess of the supplying breaker.
I appreciate your patience with me I really really do. Thank you sir
 
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Old 06-05-16, 05:57 PM
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Update !!

Inspector came out on Friday and was pretty thorough on his inspection. Had me remove a few outlet covers, and looked thru the sub-panel. Measured the depth of PVC, distance of outlet from the pool edge, opened the main panel, reviewed the wiring connections, asked me lots of questions along the way. He probably spent 20-25 mins talking and asking me questions.

Overall he was very very pleased, and happy to see I had PVC expansion joints at all four points that were above ground.

I told him I had some excellent advice from this forum and really couldn't have done it without the patience and guidance from everyone here.

We did talk again about the grounding rod, and he said it wasn't required, and didn't see a need for it. I've done some reading and research... even though everything is signed off on, I'm going to add it in a few weeks. A little extra protection cannot hurt anything.

I was able to get all of the dirt put back in, and always amazed at how much is left over despite trying to compact it as I filled.


Again, I cannot thank everyone enough for their help, especially Ray! I knew I could do it, just needed some guidance !
 
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Old 06-05-16, 06:44 PM
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Excellent news about your inspection. Thanks for letting us know.
I'm going to add it [ground rod] in a few weeks. A little extra protection cannot hurt anything
Not extra. Protection you don't have now.
 
 

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