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Questions about running 240v to the work room from the panel.

Questions about running 240v to the work room from the panel.

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Old 05-09-16, 12:35 PM
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Questions about running 240v to the work room from the panel.

Hello,

I've been making money repairing PCs out of my house since 2005 or so. As time progressed, I started getting into repairing other types of electronics (tvs for example). I've now found myself in need of a BGA rework station. I ordered and received a lower end Scotle HR-460C BGA Rework Station. Supposedly, the unit requires 4,800 watts to run. The previous owner had a certified electrician install a 12-gauge cord into the unit with a 240v plug. Because I'm having difficulties locating the outlet locally, I've decided to switch to a different type plug.

Since this unit is going to be running at 240v, I figure it's going to be drawing 20-amp. Ohm's law tells me 240v * 20A = 4,800 watt. I have a double-pole 30-amp breaker in the panel. I figured I'd install a 30-amp plug on the unit, install a 30-amp outlet into the work room wall, and then run the wire to the breaker panel. I was thinking of just running the wires over the rafters in the attic, if I can get there. It'd be around 25 feet.

Can I just use 10/2 MC for this? Also, could I use this outlet:
30 Amp 250-Volt 3-Wire Grounding Locking Single Outlet - Black-L630RCCV3 - The Home Depot

And this plug:
30 Amp 250-Volt Locking Plug-L630PCCV3 - The Home Depot

Or is there a certain type of plug for certain types of appliances?

Also, if I can use that outlet, would I want a single gang or a double gang electrical box? I'm having trouble finding a cover as well. Home Depot (where I plan on getting everything) doesn't seem to list the width of the hole for the covers. I think I'll just have to go up there and try to match a faceplate to the actual outlet, assuming I can use that outlet.

Thanks!
 

Last edited by Spork Schivago; 05-09-16 at 01:23 PM. Reason: Added another question
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Old 05-09-16, 12:58 PM
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Pictures of the wiring inside the BGA unit.

I wanted to add some pictures of what's actually inside the BGA unit. The BGA rework station has a built-in circuit breaker. There's only two wires that go to that. A brown one and a blue one. They're both the hot wires. There's a metal chassis on the breaker (from inside the unit) and there's a yellow wire attached to that chassis.

From the 12-gauge wire that the certified electrician installed, the green wire (GND / Neutral) goes to the yellow wire that goes to the chassis of the circuit-breaker. The black hot wire goes to the blue wire of the circuit-breaker. And the white hot wire goes to the brown wire of the circuit-breaker. I don't think this unit would benefit from 10/3. What do you guys think?
 
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Old 05-09-16, 01:38 PM
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Your plan is good but it would cost less to use a non locking receptacle and plug. Example:

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I was thinking of just running the wires over the rafters in the attic, if I can get there.
The cable needs to be fastened to the ceiling joists and you may need to use a running board if they are within six feet of a scuttle. If you run across the rafters there is less chance of them being stepped on.
 
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Old 05-09-16, 01:41 PM
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At 4800W the unit should be on a 240V 25A or 30A breaker with #10 wiring. Either MC cable or NM cable would be ok. In either case, the white conductor of the cable should be remarked with red or black tape to identify its use as 240V. The plug and receptacle should be a NEMA 6-30 configuration (locking or straight blade is ok). These will barely fit in a deep single-gang box, but I would recommend using a double-gang.
 
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Old 05-09-16, 01:47 PM
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Thank you Ray. I have to admit, I don't know much about AC. Not sure what a scuttle is.

If I were to staple it, would I need to use the metal clad wire or would just the normal 10/2 work? I think the normal 10/2 would be much cheaper than the metal clad stuff. Thank you for taking the time to help me figure this out.

I think I found the product. This one:
Leviton 30 Amp 2-Pole Flush Mount Self-Grounding Single Outlet, Black-R60-05372-000 - The Home Depot

It says it can use a double gang or a single gang box. Not sure what type of box to use either, plastic, metal, what style, etc.

This would be a good plug to use, right?
Leviton 30/50 Amp 2-Pole/3-Way Grounded Angle Straight Blade Plug, Black-R50-00931-000 - The Home Depot
 
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Old 05-09-16, 01:52 PM
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If you use MC cable you have to use a metal box. If you use NM (Romex) cable, you can either use a plastic or metal box. In either case, the wiring needs to be protected by running along and being stapled to framing members like 2x4 studs and joists. The devices you linked are OK.
 
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Old 05-09-16, 01:54 PM
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Okay, great!

I already have the double 30A breaker in the panel that isn't being used so I think I'll just use that, instead of purchasing a double 25A breaker. The local store only has 250 feet of the 10/2 NM, it's around the same price for the 100 foot of the MC stuff. I'm almost tempted to try running it under the house, in the crawl space, because there's more room, but it gets pretty damp down there. I was reading that NM stuff shouldn't be in really damp areas. I wonder if that'd be too damp...
 
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Old 05-09-16, 01:57 PM
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The receptacle is okay bur a bit more costly because of self grounding. I'd use a two gang metal box. I'd connect the ground wire even if it was self grounding. If a metal box the ground needs to be pigtailed to the box. (Self grounding of course doesn't work on plastic boxes so you would definitely need to connect the ground to the receptacle.) Staples are fine with non metallic cable (AKA Romex). The plug is fine.

A scuttle is an entrance to an attic.

In very damp areas beter to use UF cable or to protect from rodents PVC conduit and individual THWN wires is a good option.
 
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Old 05-09-16, 01:57 PM
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Thank you Ibpooks. I thought if I used the MC, I didn't have to staple it. I'm glad I came here and asked questions. I'm definitely learning new stuff! I want to do this right. Do you know if the MC stuff can be installed in damp places?
 
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Old 05-09-16, 02:12 PM
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Ray2047,

Thanks! I think I understand. So I'm going to go for a two gang box, preferable metal, if I can find just one for sale (mostly, I've seen boxes of 25 or so). Then, I'll use either MC or NM 10 / 2. The green ground wire or whatever it's called, I'll wire that directly to the metal box. Then I'll take a little snippet of that wire and wire it directly to the outlet. I'll try purchasing the metal box and the NM 10/2 at another store. I think I can just purchase whatever footage I want if I'm not going for the metal clad type. Because the wire will be 4 of my feet (around 12 inches) from scuttle, I'll staple it down and use one of those running boards. That's just a normal piece of wood, like a 1x6, nailed down to the rafters, right? I think I understand how to do this now. I just gotta make sure I can actually get up to the edge in the attic. It's very small up there. Even though there's a scuttle, I don't think it was really meant for people to do work up in that area. I don't know if I'll be able to get to the side where the breaker is on or where the outlet is going to get ran to. If I can't, I'm either gonna have to tear down the ceiling (which I really don't want to do) or go under the house, where it's really damp.

So, if I go under the house, I can just use this UF cable?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire...6722/205317626

I think maybe that's a better idea. There's 4 x 8 plywood nailed to the top of the crawl space so rodents can't get to it. I'd have to tear down the 4 x 8 and try to drill through the boards that go length way (the ones that hold up the floor).
 
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Old 05-09-16, 03:04 PM
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Stuck to the crawl space under the house.

Looks like I'm stuck to using the crawl space under the house. I finally went up in the attic. There's no way to actually get up there, there's just no room. I can touch the roof with my hand. And there's freaking wire over the scuttle entrance! It's stapled. I had to very carefully maneuver the board and insulation between the wire to move it out of the way. Two wires are stapled, so no matter which way I went, the wire was in the way. It's a real mess up there.

I'm going to start pulling the 4 x 8's off in the crawl space and seeing how hard it's going to be to drill the floor joists and run that 10 / 2 UF wire.
 
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Old 05-09-16, 05:05 PM
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You could just staple to the underside of the joists.
NEC violation for that size wire to be fastened perpendicular on bottom of joist in crawl space. Has to be pulled through bored holes or fastened along running boards.
 
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Old 05-09-16, 05:13 PM
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Thank you, Pat. I have deleted my post.
 
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Old 05-09-16, 05:38 PM
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Dang! I'm glad I came back here! I went out to bought the stuff. I was just going to staple it! So, I gotta drill, huh? I went for the more expensive NEMA 6-30 Locturn plug and receptacle. It was just a last minute decision. I bought the 10/2 UF-B wire, a plastic electrical box, the NEMA 6-30 Turnlok receptacle and plug that matches, and then one of those screw thingies that goes into the panel. They're metal and I fish the wire through, then I screw the two screws in and it'll hold the wire nice and secure like. It's 3/8" in diameter.

Now, I'm getting ready to hook up the plug to my machine. Tomorrow, I'll work on running the wire through the crawl space's joists (by drilling the holes and feeding it through). I have a G, an X and a Y. I was expecting this. My understand is the G for the plug takes the green wire from the machine. The X and Y take the black and white hot wires. Tomorrow, if everything goes well, I'll be installing the receptacle. Should the black hot wire on the receptacle match the black wire on the plug? Because black and white will both be hot, does it matter? If my question is confusing, I can clarify a bit more.
 
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Old 05-09-16, 05:48 PM
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FIRST thing to do is to check the LOCAL code. If you are inside New York City proper you may be required to use armored cable or conduit. Most likely will also need a permit and inspection.
 
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Old 05-09-16, 05:54 PM
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Okay. I'm not inside NYC, I'm a good 5 hours away. How do I go about checking the LOCAL code? I found stuff for the City of Corning, here: http://www.cityofcorning.com/index.a...5D4B6AEC0C7%7D

But we're not in the City of Corning. We're in the Town of Corning (the country side). The rules here are a bit different. For example, every house needs 2 acres where I live, but in the actual city, they don't need much land at all (I don't know how much). If we had four acres, we could have two houses on our property. But if we only had 2 or 3 acres, we're only allowed one (unless under a hardship).

Also, here's the end I wired up. What do you guys think? Should I cut the black rubber back further so I can push the wires down even further? I've tugged on them pretty hard and they're in there good...
 
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Last edited by Spork Schivago; 05-09-16 at 05:59 PM. Reason: added content
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Old 05-09-16, 05:58 PM
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There is a strip gauge on the back of the receptacle. As long as the wires are stripped per recommendation and are fully into the terminals..... you are fine.

Looks like the white wire bunched up a bit. Still ok as it's inside of the protective shield.
 
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Old 05-09-16, 06:18 PM
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Codes, building, electrical, mechanical, etc.

All codes are local. The national and international codes often mentioned have no power of enforcement until enacted into law by a local, regional (county) or state legislative body. Often smaller jurisdictions do not have their own codes but merely require adherence to the state-mandated codes. The enabling legislation can add to or delete from the model code and this is why only the local code is of importance.

Looking at the link you provided it appears that you would be subject to the New York State electrical code. There may be a state-sponsored website that covers the requirements. It is still possible that your county has jurisdiction with electrical construction, I don't know. I do know that NYC is pretty strict as is Chicago (and Cook County). I've also heard a few places in California (L.A. county?) as well.

But for most residential properties across the country the information you have received in this thread is completely acceptable.
 
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Old 05-09-16, 06:33 PM
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PJMax,

I fixed the white. I didn't like that. It just wasn't down far enough. I pulled it back out, twisted it again, and pushed it back down. Once I removed the cardboard, I had more wiggle room on the actual wires and were able to push them all down much further.

Furd,

Yeah, I have a friend that does these government contracts. He owns his own business rebuilding stuff and has a team. He has electricians on his team and has told me some of the nightmares with the NYC stuff. Thankfully, he doesn't work there much. I guess even when it's not NYC, a lot of the government contracts have weird rules that aren't the same as normal city rules.

So, I should probably give that guy a call on that page tomorrow before I start work and just double check with him everything is fine, right? The code enforcer guy? I know in the past, before my dad got dementia, we would do electrical work and never needed any permits or anything. I never remember having anyone come up to check the work until this house was being built. There was some lady who came up three times for inspections. I wish I had her number. I bet she'd be the one to call. I want to do everything legit like. I don't want to get in any trouble. We got a baby coming (my first one!) so I want to be extra safe and keep everything up to code. I don't want any fire hazards or anything, you know?
 
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Old 05-09-16, 08:51 PM
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The black flex cord on the plug cannot be secured to the building surface. I was not sure if that was your plan.
 
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Old 05-09-16, 09:08 PM
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I'm not sure I follow. There wasn't any cord on the plug until I hooked one up. Are you talking the rubber part that's around the 12-gauge wire? The one I wired into the plug? If so, I'm not following. My plan was to just run the 10 / 2 that I bought from the breaker, under the house in the crawl space, through the floor joists, into the work room, install my new NEMA 6-30 receptacle and then plug and lock in the plug I purchased and wired in. If you're talking about the big fat rubbery wire that goes to the BGA unit, the one that I installed the plug onto tonight, that's just going to plug into the wall. I'll have the BGA rework unit stationed on my workbench. The black cord will be behind it, going down to where the receptacle is. It'll plug in there and I'll just lock it in.

Thanks.
 
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Old 05-09-16, 10:10 PM
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THe service cord from the work station with the plug is fine as long as it is just behind the bench.
 
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Old 05-10-16, 09:22 AM
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I think I understand now. PCBoss was saying I couldn't take that cord and physically attach it to the house somehow, right?

Thank you guys for helping me with this! It's been a heck of a lot of fun and I really learned a lot since I started! I had so many questions and I feel I got them all answered. I'm going to call that code enforcer guy and ask him questions, to make sure I don't need no permits or inspections, etc. I was going to start wiring up the panel / routing the wire / installing the receptacle today but I think this is going to have to wait till Thursday at the earliest. I'll make sure I don't need no permits and stuff first. Tanks again guys for all the help!!! You guys are the greatest!
 
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Old 05-11-16, 07:06 PM
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How long does it normally take for the code enforcer guy to contact people usually? I called two days ago, left a message, and still haven't heard back from him. On his machine, I explained what I wanted to do, run the 240v from the panel, and I asked if he could call me back and let me know if there were any permits or inspections that needed to be done, etc. I gave him my number and now is day two, coming to an end, and still no word. Should I start running the stuff? I've called a few times since but it always goes to answering machine after it runs a bit. He must be a busy man.
 
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Old 05-11-16, 07:52 PM
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Where I am it can be days are months but I'm in the big city. The trick is to try to call when the office opens in the morning so you get him before he leaves for the field.

I'd suggest just go in and apply for a permit. if they have a problem they will let you know.
 
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Old 05-11-16, 07:54 PM
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Ahhh! Thank you Ray2047! I tried around 2:00pm the first day and then around 4:30pm the 2nd. I'll give it a shot first thing early tomorrow morning. I'm a bit nervous as to what he's going to say. I hope he doesn't say I have to be certified or something! That'd be horrible!!!
 
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Old 05-11-16, 09:14 PM
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Ray is correct, before 10 AM is best as they spend a fair amount of time in the field and late afternoons is when they catch up on the paperwork.

Of course there are all sorts of other reasons why he may not be answering his telephone, all the way from being on jury duty to meetings with his people to actually taking some time away from the job. By and large code enforcement inspectors are among the hardest working government employees you will ever meet.

I'll add, mostly for others reading this thread, while most homeowners will do the work in a safe and proper manner there is also the very real problem of unpermitted work fouling up a sale in the future. More and more real estate sales are predicated on ALL work done on a house after initial construction be permitted and inspected as required by local codes. In my area we have the "Form 17" where the seller must disclose any and all work done as well as whether or not the proper permits were issued along with the intermediate and final inspections.

The only answers allowed on the Form 17 are Yes, No and I Don't Know, the latter only being used for work done prior to ownership or to be answered by an agent selling for the estate of a deceased owner. Falsifying the Form 17 is grounds for lawsuit and washing out a sale.

Note also that many jurisdictions treat each day of a failure to obtain proper permitting as a separate violation and the penalties can add up really fast.
 

Last edited by Furd; 05-11-16 at 09:55 PM. Reason: Additional information.
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Old 05-12-16, 08:45 AM
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I'm around a lot more rural towns and townships, and often there the inspector is part time in each jurisdiction. Sometimes only a few days per month. If your local government is a smaller town maybe try calling the general front desk number and ask about the inspector's availability.
 
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Old 05-12-16, 09:53 AM
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Ibpooks, we are a very small town. Last I checked, it was only 30,000 or so that lived here. Even that number might b a bit high. When I check on the website, it lists Steve as the Code Enforcer. When I call the number though, it's automated and I have to hit buttons. I hit four for Code Enforcement and then there's a list of people. Steve is first on the list. I don't know who the other guys are, but is it safe to assume that they're code enforcers for this area as well and I can try contacting one of them?

I didn't have any options for any front desks. I was thinking of trying to figure out where exactly this place is and going there in person.

I wanted to add, my friend, who lives around 2 miles away, just bought a house last year or so. He had a lot of work done on it. Our mutual friend Quinton, who does the government contracts and restores houses and stuff for a living, he came and tore down sheetrock and stuff. He had me do the wiring. I don't remember any inspectors or any permits. We just did it. Maybe because we're in the country area, we don't need to call anyone?
 
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Old 05-12-16, 12:50 PM
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Could be -- there are some rural areas that do not require inspections for residential and agricultural property. Often they are technically required from the state government but there is no local enforcement and very few people go through the process.

Code enforcement might not be the right person. That title usually is for the person who checks for property maintenance standards in the neighborhoods like no junk cars in the front yard, unsanitary conditions, red tagged properties...that kind of thing. For building and mechanical codes you would normally want to talk to the building or zoning department.
 
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Old 05-12-16, 01:23 PM
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Thanks! I'll look for a building and zoning department then and see what they have to say. I'll also try and get a hold of Quintin and see why he didn't have the work we did inspected, etc. I know he made me do certain things, like tape the electrical outlets with black electrical tape, so someone couldn't touch the hot screws and shot themselves, if they took it apart. He said that was to keep it up to code. I don't know if that was true or not. He'd know though, I'm sure. Thanks
 
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Old 05-12-16, 02:40 PM
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he made me do certain things, like tape the electrical outlets with black electrical tape
Not national code. Occasionally done for "hot work" convenience on commercial work but often considered somewhat amateurish on residential work.
 
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Old 05-12-16, 02:49 PM
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...we are a very small town. Last I checked, it was only 30,000 or so that lived here.
Was that a typo? Did you mean to type 3,000 population?

I live in a city of 33,505 according to the 2010 Census and estimated at 36,567 as of 2014 and my city is NOT small. We have a full-time electrical inspector as well as inspectors in other areas of the building department. Because this city (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bothell,_Washington) straddles the county line they have chosen to abide by many of the building codes of the more populous county to the south, much to my consternation since I live in the northern county.
 
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Old 05-12-16, 03:22 PM
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It wasn't a typo. I guess I could see how some people might consider a city of 30,000 a bigger city. I didn't think they came much smaller than this! I couldn't imagine a city of 3,000 people! I mean, I guess I consider places like Caton part of Corning. I believe they're considered like I am here, in the Town of Corning, not the city. Kinda a little shoot off of the city, you know? Like a little suburb. I was thinking big cities were like 50,000 - 1,000,000 or so!

I just googled it and it seems my city is even smaller than I realized! In 2013, it was 11,068. I guess I could see where something 3x the size of Corning would be considered a big city.
 
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Old 05-15-16, 05:18 PM
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Cool

Thank you guys! You guys are awesome!!! I got the 240V in the work room now and it's working great!!! Much appreciated!!!! We're mudding the walls now. First time we've ever done that so that's a new experience as well.

For the actual work room, instead of cutting the sheetrock down to the floor and drilling a hole, I measured where I wanted to outlet, figured out where about that was under the house, went there and drilled up into what I figured was behind the sheetrock. Then I cut a little square out of the sheetrock where I wanted my outlet. I went down into the crawlspace and started fishing the wire up through. My wife stayed up there looking for it. She said she seen the insulation start to move so figured I was right and then all of a sudden, there was the line!

So I hooked it all up in the work room, tested it, had 120VAC hot on each terminal, 240VAC hot total and just put the cover on. I had one of those old work box type ones where you didn't have to attach it to a stud, you could just install it anywhere to the sheetrock. I used that. I put the cover on and we don't gotta mud the work room now. Just where we cut the sheetrock going to the panel.
 
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Old 05-15-16, 06:08 PM
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Good job. Thanks for letting us know.
 
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