New kitchen wiring questions

Reply

  #1  
Old 09-21-16, 07:20 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Exclamation New kitchen wiring questions

Hi,

Just gutted our 60's kitchen and working on framing. Existing wiring has been pulled in all but the breakfast nook, as it was insufficient.

Long story as to why why I can't bug the inspector w/questions and I see mixed messages on kitchen wiring sites. Help with these questions and links to useful sites are much appreciated.
  1. range hood - Does that need a dedicated circuit or can it be with outlets?
  2. dishwasher and frig: Do each need a dedicated circuit or can they be combined?
  3. Must a disposal have a dedicated circuit?
  4. There is an abandoned 240V run that went to a long gone window A/C unit. It passes under the kitchen so I'd like to repurpose it. It's 10/2 wire. Is there a way to use a common neutral and get two circuits out of it? If so, how is that done?

Thanks guys!
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 09-21-16, 08:11 AM
Handyone's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: U.S.
Posts: 5,451
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I'm not a professional electrician so hold on for more advice.

1. The range hood can be on a lighting circuit. I would recommend a dedicated 20 amp circuit in case you ever want a microwave hood.
2 and 3. In newer homes, the dishwasher and disposal each have dedicated circuits.
AFAIK the fridge does not require a dedicated circuit and I think it would be a waste.
4. A 240V cable is a perfect way to run two new circuits sharing a neutral, a MWBC. But the cable must have 2 hots, a neutral and ground.
 
  #3  
Old 09-21-16, 08:22 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks handyone.

Never a microwave/hood, so shared circuit w/outlets is OK? Also are range hoods hard wired?

The 10/2 cable only has two conductors and a ground, so no good on that?
 
  #4  
Old 09-21-16, 09:21 AM
Handyone's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: U.S.
Posts: 5,451
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
The range hood may be connected to a counter top appliance circuit. If you have a gas range receptacle, it's easy to take power from there and go straight up.

Any vent hood may be hard wired (rear or top), but I prefer a cord with a receptacle located in the upper cabinet. A cord connected hood requires a dedicated circuit.

The 10/2 is useless to you unfortunately.
 

Last edited by pcboss; 09-21-16 at 05:40 PM. Reason: added dedicated ckt note
  #5  
Old 09-21-16, 11:23 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Received 13 Votes on 11 Posts
A vent hood cannot be on any of the counter top 20 amp receptacle circuits. Garbage disposal and and dish washer can share a circuit if their amperage is low enough.
 

Last edited by pcboss; 09-21-16 at 05:41 PM.
  #6  
Old 09-21-16, 04:10 PM
A
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,610
Received 44 Votes on 39 Posts
A range hood that is cord and plug connected is supposed to be on its own individual branch circuit. Otherwise if hard wired can share with lights. Can't share with sabc receptacles.
Fridge has to be on a sabc or dedicated circuit. Can not share with dishwasher.
 
  #7  
Old 09-21-16, 04:46 PM
Handyone's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: U.S.
Posts: 5,451
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
You can see I was wrong on the range hood requirements, it cannot be on a sabc.

You can't fight it, but this is one NEC Rule I cannot understand.
 
  #8  
Old 09-21-16, 06:01 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks all.

Let me see if I have this correct:
  • range hood - 1 circuit
  • gas range OK with sabc
  • fridge OK with sabc
  • dishwasher and disposal 1 circuit
  • in-cabinet microwave 1 circuit
 
  #9  
Old 09-21-16, 06:11 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Received 13 Votes on 11 Posts
Yes, with one qualification. Range hood can be on any non restricted circuit such as lighting.
 
  #10  
Old 09-22-16, 06:10 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks ray. Just read something else confusing so to be clear, dishwasher and disposal 1 circuit is OK? Should it be GFI?
 
  #11  
Old 09-22-16, 06:24 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Received 13 Votes on 11 Posts
From what the pro sites say 2014 NEC requires GFCI for GDs and DWs. Some non pro sites say no.
 
  #12  
Old 09-22-16, 07:36 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
"so to be clear, dishwasher and disposal 1 circuit is OK? "
 
  #13  
Old 09-22-16, 07:40 AM
I
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 10,944
Received 43 Votes on 41 Posts
Dishwasher and disposal can share a circuit if both are less than 50% of the circuit rating.
 

Last edited by pcboss; 09-22-16 at 08:59 AM. Reason: clarification
  #14  
Old 09-22-16, 08:47 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks. One last related question: one sabc spans both sides of the sink, so to connect the boxes I have to span the cavity with the steel drain vent stack that goes up to the roof. Is a cable allowed to pass horizontally around the vent stack in a cavity or do I have to go up to the attic, around and down?
 
  #15  
Old 09-22-16, 09:00 AM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 15,150
Received 87 Votes on 74 Posts
Going around the vent stack should not be an issue. Going down and up may give better clearance.
 
  #16  
Old 09-22-16, 09:50 AM
A
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,610
Received 44 Votes on 39 Posts
As long as there is nothing else on the circuit then the 50% rule should not apply to the dishwasher/disposal. Very common to be on the same circuit.
 
  #17  
Old 09-22-16, 10:25 AM
I
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 10,944
Received 43 Votes on 41 Posts
Correct, and thanks for adding that clarification PCboss. Typical residential appliances these days are no problem sharing a 20A circuit. A 1/2 HP disposal is ~4 amps, and an energy efficient dishwasher is generally 9-10A.
 
  #18  
Old 09-23-16, 06:01 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
50% rule? Does that mean no one appliance can use more than 50% of the circuit's capacity?
 
  #19  
Old 09-23-16, 11:50 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Received 13 Votes on 11 Posts
50% rule? Does that mean no one appliance can use more than 50% of the circuit's capacity?
No. It applies only to fixed in place equipment and means if the equipment exceeds 50% of the circuit capacity there can't be anything else on the circuit.
 
  #20  
Old 09-23-16, 06:27 PM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 10,651
Received 86 Votes on 76 Posts
I have to span the cavity with the steel drain vent stack that goes up to the roof.


If I were gutting a '60s kitchen, I'd be replacing the vents and drains with new PVC DWV pipe. I am assuming you have cast iron piping now and if so, it is near it's end of life anyway. You can get other opinions in the plumbing section of this forum.
 
  #21  
Old 09-29-16, 06:52 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
So dedicated range hood (no microwave) 15A circuit is sufficient?
 
  #22  
Old 09-29-16, 07:45 AM
I
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 10,944
Received 43 Votes on 41 Posts
A 15A general purpose circuit is ok for the range hood as long as it is a hardwired range hood. If it is a cord-and-plug connected model, code requires a dedicated 20A circuit (to accommodate future potential use of a microwave-hood).
 
  #23  
Old 09-29-16, 11:23 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks. Not going to argue that, but makes no sense in my situation.

Any tricks for keeping the receptacle hidden from view? Can it be put inside the hood somehow?
 
  #24  
Old 09-29-16, 11:55 AM
I
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 10,944
Received 43 Votes on 41 Posts
I assume that means there is no upper cabinet over the hood? Something like a decorative vent stack? Do you know how the range hood manufacturer recommends the electrical connection is made? Some of these units are actually wired in the attic or on the roof.

A reasonable option if you don't know at rough wiring what the finished unit will be is to leave a couple feet of romex looped hanging out of the sheetrock behind the expected location of the hood so you have easy access to wire appropriately when the final unit is selected.
 
  #25  
Old 10-01-16, 08:15 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
One oversight: under cabinet lighting.

We definitely want everything hidden and will have a switch for each side of the kitchen. How is that done? Hard wired or outlets? Conduit under the cabinets? What is the best way to span the stove which will have no overhead cabinets, just a (no microwave) hood?

Thanks.
 
  #26  
Old 10-01-16, 08:37 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Received 13 Votes on 11 Posts
First you need to decide 120 volt lighting or low voltage lighting. Low voltage lighting is usually simpler.
 
  #27  
Old 10-01-16, 08:39 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
@ ray2047 - I'll look into it & get back, but is there a good reason to pick 120V over low voltage like brighter or cheaper?
 

Last edited by syakoban; 10-01-16 at 09:12 AM.
  #28  
Old 10-01-16, 09:16 AM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 13,630
Received 207 Votes on 184 Posts
120 volt UC lighting tends to be expensive ($30 on up per fixture) and I would recommend direct wire.

Last few kitchens I have done I have used LED strip lighting. It is very easy to conceal, and if you buy the right stuff, easy to connect. The only thing is you need to install a switched receptacle some place to plug the drivers into. In most cases in a lower cabinet or basement is the best place to put it. You will need one driver per switch. I have found the easiest low voltage cable to use in 2 wire thermostat wire with an overall jacket which is approved for in-wall installations. The cable will poke out just below the upper cabinet bottom.

One last tip is make sure you get a strip with the brightness you want. While cheap strips on Amazon work fine I find a brighter strip (more LEDs per inch) is better in a kitchen.
 
  #29  
Old 10-01-16, 12:17 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Tolyn - thanks for the info. I just started researching and was at HD anyway, so I looked at what they have. I was shocked how expensive the LED fixtures were - I think $30 - $49 each (per cabinet). They were line voltage and it seemed most were corded. I didn't see any low voltage at all. Any recommendations where to look or brand?
 
  #30  
Old 10-01-16, 01:34 PM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 13,630
Received 207 Votes on 184 Posts
The local home stores have no or very limited selection of LED strip lights, and what they do have are not very user friendly and are expensive.

Have bought from Superbright LED and Inspired LED (google each) and have had good results with both. Past 3 kitchens I have done I have been from Inspired LED because I really like their "Tiger Paw" connectors for connecting the low voltage wire directly to the LED strip(s). I also like that you can order exactly the length of strip you need.

I would recommend going with their Ultra bright strips or higher, in 3000K for warm light, or 4200K for a whiter light. Measure the length of cabinet uppers you have, add a little extra in case of boo-boos, and then order a connector for each section of cabinets you have. You said you have two switches so you will need a driver for each.
 
  #31  
Old 10-02-16, 07:39 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks Tolyn - looking into it!
 
  #32  
Old 10-02-16, 08:03 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Any thoughts on using full fixtures (like pucks or bars) vs. open light strips like this?

https://www.superbrightleds.com/more...lighting/1426/
 
  #33  
Old 10-02-16, 09:22 AM
Handyone's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: U.S.
Posts: 5,451
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
My favorite UC lighting is the Juno LED fixtures, very high quality. They are hardwired, so you can run your cables in the walls anywhere you want.
The light color and distribution is great and each fixture includes a built-in dimmer. They are also easy to install.
These are not cheap, $150 for a 30". Here's a link:

Juno Pro-Series 30 in. White LED Under Cabinet Light with Dimming Capability-UPLED30-WH - The Home Depot
 
  #34  
Old 10-02-16, 12:09 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thank Handyone but waaaaay too expensive for us.
 
  #35  
Old 10-02-16, 03:18 PM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 13,630
Received 207 Votes on 184 Posts
Any thoughts on using full fixtures (like pucks or bars) vs. open light strips like this?
That are the LED strips I was referring to. If you go with that one, I would recommend getting the high-density strips in the 3250K color. You will also need two kits if you want them on two switches and to be able to dim each one. However, in my experience you will never need to dim them.
 
  #36  
Old 10-03-16, 05:48 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
How do you keep the strips clean like when there's grease in the air that settles?
 
  #37  
Old 10-03-16, 06:02 AM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 15,150
Received 87 Votes on 74 Posts
Puck lights give a very uneven distribution of light. Strip are way more even. I liked the Seagull Ambiance series of low voltage lights. The had an option for led bulbs.
 
  #38  
Old 10-03-16, 06:35 PM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 13,630
Received 207 Votes on 184 Posts
How do you keep the strips clean like when there's grease in the air that settles?
I have never heard of that being an issue but if it is something that you are concerned about then I suggest using the weatherproof strips like this: https://www.superbrightleds.com/more...led-5050/1622/
 
  #39  
Old 10-08-16, 01:50 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 606
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Looks like we'll be going with Bright LED Strip Lights. I have two circuits that I need to control from a wall box. Is the easiest way to have each switch control one side of a receptacle and then plug each power supply into the appropriate outlet or is there a better way?

They say that power supplies don't get warm and can go in a cabinet (where I'd put the receptacle box. Any code or other issues w/that?
 
  #40  
Old 10-09-16, 06:48 AM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 13,630
Received 207 Votes on 184 Posts
Yes. You can split wire a single duplex receptacle so each half is controlled by one switch, or just install two duplex receptacles in a two gang box.

Putting the power supplies in a cabinet is not an issue.
 
Reply
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: