Can I put a neutral lug here?

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  #1  
Old 01-21-17, 02:00 PM
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Can I put a neutral lug here?

This is the main panel in my house, where I'm going to run power out to my barn. My neutral, is 1/0. There is no room for it. Can I mount a lug where those arrows are pointing? Also, I have a #6 ground that I have to find a spot for. Any ideas? Thanks. John.
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  #2  
Old 01-21-17, 02:14 PM
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The neutral cannot be mounted directly to the enclosure. You will need a lug adapter that will install on the neutral bar.

You can add a ground bar and move grounds over to make space for the adapter.
 
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Old 01-21-17, 02:20 PM
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If you had access to the back of the panel you could nut and bolt a lug on for ground but neutral must go to the neutral/ground bus bar. I'd need to see more detail in those buses but you may be able to double up some of the small ground wires freeing up some space to install an add-a-lug. This lug gets installed in two smaller holes.

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The lug kit you use depends on the brand of panel. Each company has their own lug kit.
 
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Old 01-21-17, 02:21 PM
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NO! While the neutral bus is connected to the panel, installing a neutral wire to it will cause current to flow through the steel which would be a very bad thing.

You could install a ground bar in the panel, move some ground wires to the new ground bar, and then install a neutral lug to the neutral bar that will accept your 1/0 wire like this: Siemens #4-2/0 Neutral Lug Kit For Load Centers-ECLK2 - The Home Depot

I'm wondering though, what size breaker are you planing to install in the load center that you need 1/0 wire?
 
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Old 01-21-17, 02:59 PM
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The panel is a Murray. The neutral is 1/0, because it was sized the same as the hots. Also, the distance required 1/0 in size. The breaker is 80 amp. I think if I move ground wires, I would have to extend their length. Is there a lug, that has two holes, so it can accept the 1/0 neutral, and the neutral or ground I remove the bar?
 
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Old 01-21-17, 03:10 PM
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You can splice additional length to reach the bar.
 
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Old 01-21-17, 03:35 PM
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Murry and Siemens are the same. The #6 ground should fit in any regular neutral/ground bar hole. I would suggest running it to the new ground bar you install.
 
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Old 01-21-17, 04:17 PM
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I can't tell from the pic but you should be able to combine some of the ground wires to free up holes. Most Murray bars will take 2 ground wires in the small holes and three in the large. Read the panel label to verify.
 
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Old 01-21-17, 06:21 PM
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This is a Siemens/ Murray isolated neutral bar. Could I install this, and run my 1/0 neutral to it, then just install a jumper between the neutral bars?Name:  8141iG5qnOL._SL1500_.jpg
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Old 01-21-17, 07:44 PM
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The item you need is a 1/0 Collar Strap for Murray.
Collar Straps for Murray are NOT the same as Siemens
A Siemens Collar Strap will not fit Murray.
Look at THIS
 
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Old 01-21-17, 07:47 PM
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Could I install this, and run my 1/0 neutral to it, then just install a jumper between the neutral bars?
How would that help ? You would still need to move wires on the current neutral bar and you would need a 1/0 jumper between bars.
 
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Old 01-21-17, 08:02 PM
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I realize the collar strap is the way to go, but where do I put the 2 neutral wires that I have to remove to install it?
 
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Old 01-21-17, 08:09 PM
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Look at your existing neutral bars.

Is there only one white wire in each hole ?
Is there only one ground wire in each hole ?

You can only have one neutral per hole but many panels will allow two like sized ground wires to share one hole.
 
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Old 01-22-17, 09:00 AM
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Install a ground bar. Move a bunch of ground wires from neutral bar to new ground bar to make room for neutral lug and other neutrals. Relocate other neutrals as needed to holes that preciously has grounds in them. Problem solved.
 
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Old 01-22-17, 10:21 AM
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Thanks Tolyn. I looked around the panel today, and took a couple of pictures. You mentioned that neutrals cant be connected directly to the panel body itself. I'm not trying to be a wise @%#, but why are the neutrals attached to the ground bar that's screwed to the directly to the panel in this picture? I'm just trying to understand. Its a shame, because it seems I could just move that small neutral to the small hole, and install the 1/0 neutral in the large hole. I'm going follow the expert advice given here, and either install a collar strap, or do the ground bar / relocation that you recommended. But, I'm just curious about the wiring in the pic. These images need to be rotated 90 degrees clockwise. Thanks. Name:  IMG_1182.jpg
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Old 01-22-17, 10:57 AM
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Looks like you have neutrals on a ground bar. The neutral bar should be in standoffs to keep it off the enclosure.
 
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Old 01-22-17, 11:11 AM
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That's what I was saying. The first pic is of the ground bar, with neutrals on them. The second pic is of the actual neutral bar in standoffs.
 
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Old 01-22-17, 11:55 AM
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Looks li,e someone screwed up because they did not know the issues.
 
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Old 01-22-17, 02:31 PM
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Ok, I guess that brings up another issue. Should something be done about those neutrals? They have been that way since 2003. There hasn't been any problems.
 
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Old 01-22-17, 02:49 PM
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The neutrals need to be moved to the neutral bar. Any grounds on the neutral bar need to be moved to the ground bar. Panel instructions permitting the grounds can be doubled on the ground bar. Neutrals can not be doubled. May never be a problem but why take the risk.
 
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Old 01-22-17, 02:54 PM
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The neutrals on the ground bar are putting neutral current on the enclosure and creating a shock hazard.
 
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Old 01-22-17, 03:03 PM
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Those neutral would have to be lengthened in order to move them. Is that allowed? And, if it is, Is this legal to make a butt splice or would I have to use wire nuts? Name:  422005_primary_450px.jpeg
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Old 01-22-17, 03:06 PM
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Those neutral would have to be lengthened in order to move them. Is that allowed?
Yes. You can use a butt splice if it is rated for more than 250 volts. The ones from the auto parts store often aren't so be careful what you buy.
 
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Old 01-22-17, 03:07 PM
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Yes you can splice. Wire nuts are cheap and easy. Butt splices may not be listed for use with solid wire.
 
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Old 01-22-17, 04:06 PM
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If you really want to use butt splices I would recomend these: SpliceLineā„¢ In-Line Wire Connectors no crimping needed.
 
  #26  
Old 01-22-17, 09:42 PM
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Those neutrals are installed correctly in that panel. In a Murray panel there is no green screw, instead there is a strap that connects the two bars and if you read the label it states that the left bar can be used for neutrals if it is the service panel (main disconnect) and the strap is in place.
 
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Old 01-23-17, 06:00 AM
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Astuff is correct.
This panel is code compliant
 
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Old 01-23-17, 06:12 AM
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Look at the panel in THIS image
The black strip left to right contains an aluminum bar connecting the two ground/neutral bars. The metal inclosure is bonded by that strap on the right side. As long as the connecting bar and strap are still installed, this panel is properly wired. Older Murray panels did not have the black insulation on the aluminum strip.

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Last edited by ray2047; 01-23-17 at 09:30 AM.
  #29  
Old 01-23-17, 06:00 PM
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According to the sticker on the inside of my panel door, If the neutral is bonded, the left bar (ground bar), can be used for split neutrals.
 
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Old 01-24-17, 12:02 AM
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So to go back to the original issue....

Where either of the original arrows are pointing you can mount a Siemens/Murray grounding bar - Siemens Ground Bar Kit 7 Terminal Position-ECLX069M and connect your #6 ground.

For some reason they appear to rate the ground bar up to 1/0 but the neutral only for 1 awg. You would need a lug kit mentioned - Neutral Lug Kit #2 to 1/10-ECLK1-2

Review your grounds as you should be able to combine a couple (or three) to open a space on the right bar for the lug kit. Worst case you could wire nut and extend a couple to the new grounding bar.

Again - read the panel label to verify what part numbers are OK. It should list ECLX ground bars and ECLK lugs.
 
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Old 01-24-17, 03:38 AM
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Ok. Thanks everybody for all the help. I'll post back.
 
  #32  
Old 01-24-17, 12:22 PM
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I looked at a fairly new Murray panel label today. The OP's panel may be different but this one indicated that you could use a 1/0 in the large holes of the neutral bar. Also says to use ECLK2SC neutral lug kit which is a bit different that those shown above. I guess because of the unusual bar that they use. It is described elsewhere as "Lug Kit, 2/0 - For use on swiss cheese style neutral and ground bars"
https://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/intern...cs/ECLK2SC.pdf

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