12v Inverter will not run High Efficency gas furnace

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  #1  
Old 05-05-17, 03:30 AM
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12v Inverter will not run High Efficency gas furnace

System
1. Six 6V deep cycle batteries wired in series and parallel to give 12v and 660 AH
2. Inverter is a Vertamax 3000w pure sine wave with measured output of 115.9V and grounded
3. Furnace Manual transfer switch EZ Generator
4. Generator is Champion 4000 120v. Output is 123V
5. Charger Maintainer Intelligent 2A.
6. Larger capacity 12v charger to use from generator when grid power is out.
7. Furnace is York model YP9C060B12MP11A serial #WOK8340981 installed in 2009

Situation
-Furnace draws 4.33 amp surge to start then runs fan on less than 2 amps
-Generator will run furnace directly via transfer switch and charge batteries adequately via a 20 amp connection into house.
-Inverter will run various equipment without issues. (output 115.9V)
-Inverter displays open ground using AC plug circuit tester but is grounded.
-Error message on furnace is 9 red blinks indicating bad polarity or open ground
 
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Old 05-05-17, 05:09 AM
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Moved from Furnace Forum to Electrical forums. Seems more electrical.
 
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Old 05-05-17, 05:33 AM
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You would need to attach the grounding terminal on the invertor to the house bonding system. And , verify with a Ohmeter that the case actually connects to the 3rd wire/green at the inverter receptacles.

Verify model is 3kW with 6kW surge and not the 1.5kW with 3kW surge rating.
 
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Old 05-06-17, 01:35 PM
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Inverters never have their output receptacles grounded - that's why your plug tester shows open ground. The ground terminal on the unit is nothing more than a safety ground for the chassis.
 
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Old 05-07-17, 07:08 AM
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Furnaces are VERY picky!

Try getting a "pure sine" "online" UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) from an office supply (computer department) or online. Pure sine means it makes a perfect sine wave and online means it is always "manufacturing" its electricity. Other types of UPS pass through the line electricity when the power is on.

Also try calling the furnace manufacturer. Maybe they have a less expensive alternative?
 
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Old 05-07-17, 08:36 AM
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Inverters never have their output receptacles grounded - that's why your plug tester shows open ground. The ground terminal on the unit is nothing more than a safety ground for the chassis.
Thats not true. Depending on inverter some are bonded while others are not.

You need to make a edison plug. This plug bonds the neutral and ground. Plug it into the other empty socket on the inverter...

 
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Old 05-07-17, 10:15 AM
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Taz, typo? Dc inputs +/- not to be earthed.
 
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Old 05-07-17, 11:31 AM
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Thats not true. Depending on inverter some are bonded while others are not.
No they are not. No inverter has a ground-chassis connection. Period. It is for a reason. And doing it via a bonding plug is universally stupid. Delete that suggestion before you kill someone.
 
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Old 05-07-17, 11:37 AM
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Try getting a "pure sine" "online" UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) from an office supply (computer department) or online. Pure sine means it makes a perfect sine wave and online means it is always "manufacturing" its electricity. Other types of UPS pass through the line electricity when the power is on.
Uhhhhhhh the inverter he's using IS pure sine.
 
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Old 05-07-17, 04:06 PM
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No they are not. No inverter has a ground-chassis connection. Period. It is for a reason. And doing it via a bonding plug is universally stupid. Delete that suggestion before you kill someone.
Its a floating nuetral inverter. Just like a generator some are bonded and some are not.

Please explain how it will kill someone. Im not understanding that..
 
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Old 05-07-17, 04:13 PM
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His furnace is seeing an open ground from the power source..

. Furnace Manual transfer switch EZ Generator
They make two. One for floating neutral and one for bonded neutral.

What one do you have?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0TBKutwZpg
 
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Old 05-07-17, 04:19 PM
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I think the edison plug is easier. Heres how to mod the switch for floating neutral..

But we will wait till you reply with what you have there..

Remember you cant have two bonds.. If you mod the switch for the invertor then the furnace may not work with the generator. It would seem your gen is bonded..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVbUWCCt0D4
 
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Old 05-07-17, 06:05 PM
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respone to edison plug

You said. "I think the edison plug is easier. Heres how to mod the switch for floating neutral..

But we will wait till you reply with what you have there..

Remember you cant have two bonds.. If you mod the switch for the invertor then the furnace may not work with the generator. It would seem your gen is bonded."
with my generator bonded and the inverter not it looks like I have a delima. I like the sound of the edison plug if it is safe and will work. It could just be the extension used only when hooking the inverter to the transfer switch for the furnace. It would "fool" the furnace into accepting the power source. I am reluctant to change the furnace transfer switch as it works well with the generator which seems to be bonded. I will wait and see some more evidence or experience with the edison plug before trying it. Any further thought on this?
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 05-07-17 at 06:52 PM. Reason: quote
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Old 05-07-17, 06:39 PM
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Heres your manual..


http://www.windynation.com/cm/VertaM...0Manual_R2.pdf



2.3 GROUNDING
The VertaMax is designed to work with grounded electrical systems. In the inverter, ground is not
connected to the input terminals.
Use a copper wire to connect the grounding terminal on the VertaMax enclosure to earth ground
or chassis ground. The grounding terminal is located on the DC Input end of the inverter.
• Vehicle installations: Connect to the chassis of the vehicle.
• Boats installations: Connect to the boat’s grounding system
• Fixed land based installations: Connect to earth ground
Do not connect the system negative conductor to this terminal. NEC requires the use of an
external ground fault protection device (GFPD). The system electrical negative should be bonded
through a GFPD to earth ground at one (and only one) location. The grounding point may be
located in the solar/wind circuit or the battery circuit.



I belive there is no ground and the neutral ties to the chassis like this. Let me read more on what you should do...

But if you have a meter test the ground to inverter chassis with continuity and see what you get..


[ATTACH=CONFIG]80513[/ATTACH]
 
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Old 05-07-17, 07:03 PM
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My krieger inverter has a floating neutral also. but the ground from the outlet is tied to the chassis and separate from the neutral.

I use the edison plug. I plug my RV into the inverter. I also have a ground wire 6 gauge going to the chassis of the RV.

Any invertor with GFI I believe are bonded.
 
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Old 05-07-17, 07:29 PM
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Can you post the model transfer switch you have please?


Also test your generator ground and neutral. I believe the champion gens are floating... But not sure.


http://www.championpowerequipment.co...h_20161213.pdf
 
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Old 05-09-17, 05:31 AM
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Bonding or Edison plug

Considering my generator is ok to run my furnace via the single EZ Generator transfer switch and the inverter does not, I am asking if an Edison plug or also called bonding plug run from my inverter to the furnace transfer switch would stop the open ground signal that is stopping the furnace from working. Would this be safe to me, and not cause any harm to the circuit board on the furnace or the inverter. It seems like an easy fix to "fool" the furnace.
 
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Old 05-09-17, 08:34 AM
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It would seem its not a good idea as the invertor you have may have no ground on its outlet as in the pic I posted. So the edison plug will do nothing..

Wait for others to post about this.
 
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Old 05-09-17, 10:19 AM
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So, the problem statement is that the furnace is detecting a "neutral not grounded", but the FRAME is grounded? So, earth the NEUTRAL AT and ONLY AT the invertor. Some of those Vertamax models provide a terminal strip in addition to the NEMA 5-15's. My other advise of EARTHING the invertor case is also necessary. DO NOT earth the +/- DC inputs.
 
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Old 05-09-17, 10:30 AM
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vertamax is grounded

The inverter has a grounding connection and I have grounded it securely to the cold water copper pipe which travels through the ground.
 
  #21  
Old 05-09-17, 11:49 AM
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The inverter has a grounding connection and I have grounded it securely to the cold water copper pipe which travels through the ground.
OK, and an Ohmeter has determined that the N and PE are not connected at the invertor? (disconnected and power off test)
And, does your model have a terminal strip behind a little door?

https://www.amazon.com/VertaMax-6000.../dp/B01KUASSFI
 
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