Wire ties inside sub panel.

Closed Thread

  #1  
Old 05-07-17, 05:48 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 188
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Wire ties inside sub panel.

Are wire ties allowed inside a panel to keep wires neat and orderly? Also, in the second picture the wires don't want to stay against the walls of the panel. Can I use something like a small 3M command strip to anchor them to the panel? The photos need to be rotated 90 degrees clockwise. I cant figure out how to do that. Thanks. John.
Name:  IMG_1494.jpg
Views: 980
Size:  38.8 KBName:  IMG_1495.jpg
Views: 994
Size:  34.5 KB
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 05-07-17, 05:54 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 391
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Yes, zip ties are allowed. In fact, it is one of the methods suggested to identify the conductors of a MWBC in 210.4(d). However I would not put any anchoring means such as Command inside the panel.

210.4 Multiwire Branch Circuits

(D) Grouping.
The ungrounded and grounded circuit conductors of each multiwire branch circuit shall be grouped by cable ties or similar means in at least one location within the panelboard or other point of origination.
 
  #3  
Old 05-07-17, 06:13 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 188
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thank you.....................
 
  #4  
Old 05-08-17, 01:58 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 10,944
Received 42 Votes on 40 Posts
It's allowed, but don't go nuts. It shouldn't look like a structured telecom panel. Tightly bundled conductors will overheat without adequate air circulation.
 
  #5  
Old 05-09-17, 08:03 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 188
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I've finished wiring the panel. Thanks for all the help

Name:  IMG_1497.jpg
Views: 2112
Size:  36.5 KB
 

Last edited by PJmax; 05-09-17 at 08:18 PM. Reason: reoriented picture
  #6  
Old 05-09-17, 08:10 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 391
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
It looks pretty, but those anchors will fall off in probably 6 months to a year. Pull them out and just use the zipties if anything. Doing that is like putting tape on wirenuts - a sure-fire no-fail indicator of amateur work, that any home inspector worth his fee will call out in a heartbeat. Same with those sharp right angles on the neutrals.. Wires must have a radius (rounded) bend no less than four times the diameter of the wire.
 

Last edited by taz420; 05-09-17 at 08:29 PM.
  #7  
Old 05-09-17, 08:21 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Northern NJ - USA
Posts: 54,675
Received 520 Votes on 490 Posts
There is nothing wrong with using those stick on blocks.
Most inspectors I know wouldn't blink an eye at them.

Even if they become unattached... they will stay in place from the wiring.
 
  #8  
Old 05-09-17, 08:31 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 391
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Of course there's nothing wrong with them. Just like there is nothing wrong with using electrical tape on wire nuts. It's just a sign of amateur/DIY work that will give an inspector pause to look deeper - because no pro electrician would ever do that.
 
  #9  
Old 05-10-17, 07:46 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 188
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
It will be no surprise to the inspector that an amateur did this work. This amateur pulled the permit, and this amateur was there with the inspector during the rough inspection. This amateur was also complimented on how well the EMT bends were, for an amateur installation.
 
  #10  
Old 05-10-17, 02:22 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 391
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Ok amateur, I was talking about when you go to sell the place and the prospective buyer has a home inspector go through - although the city inspector should reject your final due to those right angle bends... You have damaged the insulation and probably the conductor, and violated manufacturer's installation instructions by doing that. And speaking of getting failed, what gauge is that ground conductor? It certainly doesn't look like #4, which is the smallest size that can be taped green....

250.119. Equipment grounding conductors can be bare, covered or insulated. If insulated and No. 6 AWG or smaller, equipment grounding conductors must have a continuous outer finish that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes.
In a home inspector's report it will read something like: "Unprofessional work noted in panel, recommend full electrical inspection". A prospective buyer will probably insist that YOU pay for that. All I am saying is save yourself some grief and pull the effin things out. They are completely unnecessary, will fall off anyway, and all they do is act as a screaming flashing billboard that an electrician did not do the work.
 

Last edited by taz420; 05-10-17 at 02:44 PM.
  #11  
Old 05-10-17, 03:39 PM
chandler's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 39,967
Received 3 Votes on 3 Posts
those right angle bends... You have damaged the insulation and probably the conductor, and violated manufacturer's installation instructions by doing that
I'll be honest, I have never been in a panel where all the conductors DIDN'T make right angle insertions into either the grounding or neutral buss or the breaker. Is there something a little more definitive, say a link or something to show this is incorrect??? I really don't see how a 90 degree bend in a neutral wire will degrade it to the point of failure.
 
  #12  
Old 05-10-17, 06:21 PM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 15,001
Received 40 Votes on 35 Posts
that any home inspector worth his fee will call out in a heartbeat. Same with those sharp right angles on the neutrals.. Wires must have a radius (rounded) bend no less than four times the diameter of the wire.
A home inspector can write up whatever they feel like, including code compliant work. That does not mean it is an issue. They are a generalist and may not have much, if any, knowledge of the codes.

Bend radius is for cables, not conductors.

I have never seen installation instructions included with wires or cables.

And yes, professionals sometimes use tyraps in panels, including instrument panels.

And speaking of getting failed, what gauge is that ground conductor? It certainly doesn't look like #4, which is the smallest size that can be taped green....

250.119. Equipment grounding conductors can be bare, covered or insulated. If insulated and No. 6 AWG or smaller, equipment grounding conductors must have a continuous outer finish that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes.
It is not even required to be green so there really is not much of an issue. Looks like it only comes from the bonding locknut.
 
  #13  
Old 05-10-17, 06:34 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 391
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Is there something a little more definitive, say a link or something to show this is incorrect???
Page 17.

http://www.simpullsolutions.com/docu...ide8-15-07.pdf

Bend radius is for cables, not conductors.
See above. Also, while 300.34 applies to >600V applications, it is the rule of thumb for all wiring. Doing a sharp right angle bend like that stresses both the insulation and the copper itself.

And yes, professionals sometimes use tyraps in panels, including instrument panels.
Read please. I am not talking about the zipties. I am the first one who told him it was fine. I am talking about those stupid adhesive anchors that he tied the wires to.
 
  #14  
Old 05-10-17, 07:25 PM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 13,065
Received 74 Votes on 66 Posts
I have never been a fan of zipties inside a panel. It makes it very hard to track down wires when they are all bundled together.
 
  #15  
Old 05-10-17, 07:45 PM
chandler's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 39,967
Received 3 Votes on 3 Posts
It still refers to "Cable OD", not conductor OD for the bends. Still looking for that definition that has made 90% of all electricians so wrong for so long.
 
  #16  
Old 05-10-17, 08:16 PM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 15,001
Received 40 Votes on 35 Posts
Rules of thumb are not enforceable.
 
  #17  
Old 05-10-17, 10:38 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 391
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
It still refers to "Cable OD", not conductor OD
The minimum allowable bend radii of non-shielded conductors are typically expressed as a multiplier of the conductor outside diameter.
Rules of thumb are not enforceable.
Do you read ANYTHING before you comment on it? I never said the rule of thumb was "enforceable". But manufacturers installation requirements are.
 
  #18  
Old 05-10-17, 10:51 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Northern NJ - USA
Posts: 54,675
Received 520 Votes on 490 Posts
Ok... everybody has been heard. We are now beating a dead horse.
I'm fairly certain the OP has read this thread and gets the point.
 
Closed Thread

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: