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How to I wall up these exposed wires without rebuilding back the original setup

How to I wall up these exposed wires without rebuilding back the original setup

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  #1  
Old 05-14-17, 07:12 PM
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How to I wall up these exposed wires without rebuilding back the original setup

Over the exposed wires pictured there used to be drywall that came down about 18" and then connected to another wall so the studs had some place to rest on.
I want to do an accordian wall or maybe even a long curtain so I'd prefer not to have to build another wall with studs just to support an 18" hanging wall to cover up the exposed wires.
My goal is to tastefully conceal the exposed wires, any options other than rebuilding the original wall structure?
(if the original wall structure is necessary to properly advise, I can draw up a diagram)

Attachment 80757
 

Last edited by ray2047; 05-14-17 at 07:56 PM. Reason: Rotate image.
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  #2  
Old 05-14-17, 07:58 PM
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Moved to electrical forum.

Is there an unfinished attic above? Those are Romex cables aren't they? Hard to tell from the picture.
 
  #3  
Old 05-14-17, 08:29 PM
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If you have enough slack on the wires, tuck them up and staple them against the ceiling and wall. Where the wires are within like 1/2" of the surface, you'll need kick plates (metal protector plates) to protect the wires from stuff like drywall screws, etc.

Anyway, I doubt that you have that amount of slack. So, you'll probably need to cut the wires (after turning off the appropriate breakers), and install one or more junction boxes to terminate the connections. The junction boxes must have faceplates that will be secured to the outside of the drywall - so that you'll have access to them later (they can't be "buried in the wall").

The photo isn't super clear - are those "air splices" on the lines or merely areas wrapped with some electrical tape to hold them together. If there are air splices they must be removed.

Technically, once you cut these circuits, they are now "modified" and require Arc Fault breakers. That is code but if you aren't inspecting it, you may simply choose to do this in a very safe way, keep access and skip the arc fault breakers. It's good practice to keep arc faults on outlet circuits. I think it's silly to use them on lighting circuits but code is code.

Good luck!
 
  #4  
Old 05-15-17, 02:57 AM
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they are now "modified" and require Arc Fault breakers
Depends on the locale and their NEC version. Just because a circuit is modified, you don't have to jump on the industry driven band wagon with arc faults.

Michael, what is that ceiling made of? My eyes are old, but it looks to be concrete block. I know I am wrong, but curious as to its composition.
 
  #5  
Old 05-15-17, 04:32 AM
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The OP's in VA, right? Why would we wish to dismiss out of hand something that could be quite literally a code violation, and result in a possible safety hazard or worse? This isn't about a bandwagon, it's about being accurate and informative.

As you should know, most states are on board with the 2011 code. It's *possible* the OP's municipality allows exceptions. It seems prudent to inform the OP as to the PROBABLE code that might be applicable for modifying an existing circuit. Wouldn't you agree? Otherwise, let's say (gosh forbid) he has an electrical fire down the road his insurance company could find cause to refuse the claim ...

From what I was able to find with a few minutes it seems LIKELY that the code might apply, as follows:

QUOTE: Mike Holt NEC® Adoption List
The effective date of the 2012 Virginia Codes will be July 14, 2014. This includes the 2011 National Electrical Code.

From NEMA.ORG: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...tOvaw7MS___aZQ
Virginia State Adoption, 2011, Adopted - 3/14/14, Implemented - 7/14/14
2012 Yes,
VA Board of Housing and Community Development Main Street Centre •
600 East Main Street, Suite 300 • Richmond, VA 23219 • (804) 371-7000
1/12/16
The 2011 NEC is included in the adoption of the 2012 Virginia Uniform Building Code. The code adoption is shown only as NFPA 70 in Chapter 27 of the Virginia UBC, with the NEC edition shown in the front of the book under administrative. The 2014 NEC and 2015 IRC is expected to go into effect on March 1, 2018.
 
  #6  
Old 05-15-17, 08:16 AM
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210.12(B) When modifications or extensions are made to an existing branch circuit in a residence and the code requires that the area have AFCI protective devices, the modified or extended branch circuit must now have an AFCI device installed. This new AFCI device must be placed in the circuit, within the panel or at the first outlet.


The OP is doing a circuit repair..... not modifying the circuit or extending it. He is not required to install an AFCI unless he so chooses.
 
  #7  
Old 05-15-17, 09:16 AM
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PJmax,

With all due respect that is not correct - at least certainly not to my understanding and I've wired two houses pretty much from scratch with a best friend who's been a professional electrician for the last 25 years.

If the OP can simply staple the existing wires up into the ceiling, then that is fine and there is not change. Once wires are cut and extended/terminated using one or more junction boxes that circuit has now been MODIFIED/EXTENDED. It isn't a "circuit repair" - the latter would be something like "replacing a switch".

Would you care to quote one or more official sources that support your assertion / opinion as to what the code means? Please find below two quite expert references that support what I've written.

Reference "Interpreting the National Electrical Code By Truman Surbrook, Jonathan Althouse"
"Anytime the circuit itself is modified or extended, or if a portion of the circuit is replaced, then the circuit is required to be protected by an arc-fault circuit-interupter ..."
"simply replacing a luminaire, switch or receptacle is not a modification of the circuit"

Here's another reference:

See 2011 National Electrical Code Changes
"With this change, it’s clear that when branch circuit wiring is extended or modified, some level of AFCI protection will be required."

One may certainly appreciate that you are perhaps motivated to "help out the OP and possibly reduce what he might be obligated to do to be code compliant". It doesn't change what the code is or what it specifies. Frankly, I am bewildered that there is continued discussion over such a well-defined subject.

Again, if you can produce some official references that support your claim I would be very pleased to review them.

For your convenience, the full language of 210.12 is below, with the most pertinent piece right here:

(B) Branch-Circuit Extensions or Modifications — Dwelling Units. Where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended in any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), the branch circuit must be protected by:
(1) A listed combination AFCI located at the origin of the branch circuit; or
(2) A listed outlet branch circuit AFCI located at the first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit.


And ... the full code for that section:

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Dwelling Units
Changes have been made to this section to address fire alarm circuiting, Type MC Cables, concrete-encased raceways, and branch circuit extensions or modifications.

210.12(A) Where Required. All 15A or 20A, 120V branch circuits in dwelling units supplying outlets in family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas must be protected by a listed AFCI device of the combination type. (click here to see Fig. 3)

Ex. 1: AFCI protection can be of the branch circuit type located at the first outlet if the circuit conductors are installed in RMC, IMC, EMT, or Type MC or steel armored Type AC cable meeting the requirements of 250.118, and the AFCI device is contained in a metal outlet or junction box.

Ex. 2: Where a listed metal or nonmetallic conduit or tubing is encased in not less than 2 in. of concrete for the portion of the branch circuit between the branch circuit overcurrent device and the first outlet, an outlet branch circuit AFCI at the first outlet is permitted to provide protection for the remaining portion of the branch circuit.

Ex. 3: AFCI protection can be omitted for an individual branch circuit to a fire alarm system in accordance with 760.41(B) and 760.121(B), if the circuit conductors are installed in RMC, IMC, EMT, or steel sheath Type AC or MC cable that qualifies as an equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 250.118, with metal outlet and junction boxes.

(B) Branch-Circuit Extensions or Modifications — Dwelling Units. Where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended in any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), the branch circuit must be protected by:
(1) A listed combination AFCI located at the origin of the branch circuit; or
(2) A listed outlet branch circuit AFCI located at the first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit.
 
  #8  
Old 05-15-17, 10:29 AM
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It is going to be up to the AHJ to determine the definition of modified. Replacing a panel does not trigger the need to install afci protection , yet some would say the circuit has been modified.
 
  #9  
Old 05-15-17, 11:19 AM
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Please count me out of any more discussion on this thread (UN-subscribing). I've provided a lot of detail and support as to the relevant code and how it's interpreted by experts.

It seems to me that some people perhaps just like to argue and thereby feel they are "winning"? I thought this was about helping the OP, and being accurate and informative. My mistake.

If this forum's intent is to ONLY have the moderators help people and provide knowledge and experience then please do let me know that this is the case.

J.
 
  #10  
Old 05-15-17, 01:24 PM
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Jefferson, you are forgetting one very important fact. The National Electrical Code has no power of enforcement UNTIL it is adopted by a state, regional or local legislative body. The enabling legislation has the power to add to or delete from the model code. The FINAL arbiter of the code is the LOCAL inspection authority.

It doesn't matter what "experts" outside the local jurisdiction may think or opine, it is the LOCAL inspection authority that makes the final judgment. You MAY be absolutely correct that Mr. Chang's (the original poster) inspector MAY call the work a modification but you cannot know that for certain.
 
  #11  
Old 05-16-17, 09:43 AM
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I have nothing to contribute on the wiring. I too am sure curious about the construction of the wall and ceiling. How old is the house? In what kind of material are the holes into which the wires go into the wall?
 
  #12  
Old 05-16-17, 10:11 AM
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Enlarging the picture it appears the ceiling is some kind of tongue-and-groove material.
 
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