Wiring Shop

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Old 06-26-17, 02:55 AM
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Wiring Shop

Hi all, I'm also running a circuit to my detached shop. I will be using a sub panel, but I was told that a sub panel shouldn't have a "main". My house panel is a 200 Amp, and I'm running #6 romex (3 conductor and a ground), through 2" PVC conduit from a 60 Amp 2 pole breaker in the main house panel. The sub will have an isolated neutral bus and a ground bus from a 8 foot ground rod at the shop in addition to the ground wire in the romex from the house. Was I misinformed? I have bought the wire and sub panel and installed the 2" conduit but I can still make changes if necessary. I'm not trying to hijack the topic, I only want to add to my own understanding.

P.S. I reviewed Ray's sub panel stickie at the top of this section and my diagram looks like his third. [ATTACH=CONFIG]82283[/ATTACH]

P.S.S. My shop will contain a 1.5Hp table saw, dust collector, router, small compressor, small window unit AC I'm sure my 60 amp service will be sufficient.

Mod Note: Type NM cable, AKA Romex is not allowed outside, even if run in conduit. It is for dry locations only.
 

Last edited by pcboss; 06-26-17 at 07:17 AM. Reason: added information
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Old 06-26-17, 04:10 AM
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Hi Ray, thanks for your input. My run is only 40 feet. I hope I can use the #6 for 60 A. at that short of distance. I'm sure you are more qualified than my adviser who is only a journeyman.

P.S. I'd like to use your math source for voltage drop. Where can I find it?
 

Last edited by okrobie; 06-26-17 at 04:22 AM. Reason: Question added
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Old 06-26-17, 05:13 AM
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My run is only 40 feet
#6 at 60a will be fine for 40 feet. You will need #10 for the ground.

electrician2.com voltage drop calculator
 

Last edited by ray2047; 06-26-17 at 05:31 AM.
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Old 06-26-17, 05:19 AM
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I was afraid that would happen. There are two of us on this thread who are energizing our shops.
 
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Old 06-26-17, 05:27 AM
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There are two of us on this thread who are energizing our shops.
Hijacking someones thread isn't allowed. Please don't do it again.
 
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Old 06-26-17, 07:11 AM
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Sorry about that Ray, as I said in the thread, I wasn't trying to hijack, but I wanted to contribute to the topic from recent personal experience.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to split the thread.

As you requested, I won't do it again.
 
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Old 06-26-17, 07:19 AM
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Hi all, I'm also running a circuit to my detached shop. I will be using a sub panel, but I was told that a sub panel shouldn't have a "main".
The panel can have a main. Whoever told you was incorrect. In fact, it needs one if it had more than 6 poles worth of breakers in it.
 
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Old 06-26-17, 08:44 AM
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Hi pcboss, Hmmm... well, as I said, it's not too late to change. I could limit my panel to six poles, or I could get a panel with a main in it. I got the one I have at a surplus store complete with 8 Cutler Hammer snap in breakers (1 and 2 poles) for $10. so I have a decision to make. Thanks for the input.

I think I already know the answer. I can limit this panel to 6 poles very handily. Thanks, Jim
 
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Old 06-26-17, 03:02 PM
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Main breaker in subpanel is for disconnect purposes only so you can use a 60 amp non fused air conditioner disconnect (~$8.00) ahead of the panel if no main breaker (assuming supply breaker doesn't exceed 60 amp). That would allow you to use more than six circuits.
 
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Old 06-28-17, 08:37 AM
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Thanks Ray, I had a feeling that it wouldn't be right to have 2 breakers in series. We have a Re-Store (Habitat for Humanity) here in town and they have a pile of those 2 pole disconnects brand new for less than $10.
 
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Old 06-28-17, 01:17 PM
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I had a feeling that it wouldn't be right to have 2 breakers in series.
You misunderstood. It isn't wrong. It is the way it is normally done. I just offered an alternate solution.
 
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Old 07-01-17, 12:58 AM
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Hi Ray, now that I already have the 6/3 +ground Romex, should I strip the jacket off of it before installing it into the conduit?

I haven't purchased the disconnect yet, the Habitat store was out of stock. I presume you are talking about the "pull-out" type. Is that correct?

Thanks, Jim
 
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Old 07-01-17, 01:25 AM
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Hi Ray, now that I already have the 6/3 +ground Romex, should I strip the jacket off of it before installing it into the conduit?
The conductors in NM-b are not rated for outside use but that is moot because they are not marked conductors and therefore can't be used in conduit. You will need to buy individual conductors such as THWN (H6 Black-H6 Black-N6 White-G Green10 copper) or UF-b cable. It is easier to run individual conductors in conduit so THWN or similar individual conductors are better.
 
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Old 07-01-17, 07:12 PM
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Hi Ray, thanks for the input. I'm sorry but I don't have the money to replace the Romex. It's already purchased. I'm 75, on Social Security and it just isn't there. Secondly, I never pulled a permit on this job so there won't be any inspections. So, I've decided to pull the Romex into my 2" conduit, buried 18"
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I know you are recommending the right approach, but you and I know that what I am doing is safe and at my age I'm tired of cow-towing to petty bureaucrats who don't know an Amp from a Watt.

Thanks again, Jim
 

Last edited by okrobie; 07-01-17 at 07:21 PM. Reason: Capitalization
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Old 07-01-17, 07:27 PM
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I know you are recommending the right approach, but you and I know that what I am doing is safe
Not sure if it is "safe". NM-b is rated for dry location only and conduit run outside will eventually collect water or at least have some moisture trapped no matter how well you seal it.
While I found that some 6 AWG NM-b actually contains same THHN wire (not sure if they are also same to THWN, which you need), there is no guarantee yours do.
 
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Old 07-01-17, 08:42 PM
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Drat lambition, I think you are right. I just stripped open a chunk of the NM-B and it has no markings or labels at all. So this probably won't be safe. Well, I can always sell it on Craig's list.

I'll have to get after my buddy the journeyman. He don't know S**T

Thanks guys for keeping me on the straight and narrow.

Now I'll have to go sell pencils on the corner.
 
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Old 07-01-17, 09:27 PM
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If you bought it at Home Depot or Lowes they may let you trade it for the correct cable. Also just a reminder it is okay to use it all the way to the outside all and all the way from the inside wall of the shop so you only need THWN or UF from house wall to garage wall.

(70 year old geezer to 75 year old geezer) We here at the forum have a responsibility only to promote safe and code compliant solutions. We can't say something is okay simply because it has been done in the past and worked for months or years before it failed. If you want to take the risk till it fails or you can do it right that is your choice.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 07-01-17 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 07-01-17, 10:58 PM
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Naaa... retail is for sissies. I got it on Craig's list. and that's where it's going back to.

I will be able to use 20 feet in the house.
 
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Old 07-02-17, 12:29 AM
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Good plan. If you need any more help just ask.
 
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Old 07-02-17, 04:10 AM
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Thanks Ray, I've never seen wire nuts big enough for this stuff. Do you have a favorite method or product for splicing this heavy wire?
 
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Old 07-02-17, 05:19 AM
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#6 can be spliced with large blue or grey wire nuts.
 
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Old 07-02-17, 07:02 AM
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FYI: If you run THWN all the way to the breaker, you need conduit all the way to the load center (breaker panel).
Splicing #6 probably is better if the load center is far from where your conduit enters the building.

I'd use a split bolt and splicing tape (rubber tape) instead of large wirenuts.
 
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Old 07-04-17, 09:11 AM
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Thanks guys, The home run before the conduit is about 20 feet from the main so I will use the Romex for that part, but on the load side the conduit is about a foot from the load center, so that will be enough room from the disconnect Ray recommended, so I can use small pieces of conduit to connect those items.

I will be more comfortable with the split bolt concept for splicing. I have never liked using wire nuts on bigger than #10. Do I need to put that splice into a box or something?

Vendors on eBay are selling combos with 3 #6 Red white and black, and #10 green. I will need a 30 foot combo for less than $60.

I refurbish laptops and build gaming computers in my spare time so I will need to get busy on that so I can buy the wire.
 
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Old 07-04-17, 03:55 PM
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Best to put that large a connection in a box. Some conduit els can be used but only if marked for that and the cubic inches is adequate.
 
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Old 01-28-18, 12:46 AM
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Hi all, I kind of put this project on the back burner for a lack of funds. But I'm starting to get interested in it again. We were discussing the fact that I would need to run 6 AWG THWN in my outside conduit instead of the #6 Romex that I had already purchased. I have since found a less expensive source for the #6 THWN. Problem is that it is all Black. My question is, do the wires have to be colored? or can I use the colored tape I have seen.
 
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Old 01-28-18, 06:02 AM
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The only wires that you need to re-identify is the neutral (white) and the ground (green). Code says only wire #4 and larger can be re-identified but that is one of the few codes that is commonly allowed to slide. It will depend on your inspector. Normally wires are only re-identified at accessible boxes and pull points.
 
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Old 01-28-18, 08:33 PM
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Thanks Tolyn, that helps a lot,

By re-identifying, I take it you mean using colored tape on the ends of the wire. Is that correct?

This new source is a re-cycle center (scrap yard) They have lots of the #6 THWN and I forgot to mention that they also have plenty of #10 green so that will work out good. Let me say that I think it is a bargain. I have yet to do the math. Their prices are in pounds. $2.50 per pound. I Googled it and found that #6 wire weighs 0.109 pounds per foot. Which means that for the 150 feet that I need would be about $40. Home Depot price for the same length would be about $90. So, I guess it is a bargain. I also have some spools of other kinds of wire that I don't need and they will accept it for credit toward the #6. That is something Home Depot won't do.

Thanks again, Jim
 

Last edited by okrobie; 01-28-18 at 08:35 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 01-30-18, 05:11 PM
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By re-identifying, I take it you mean using colored tape on the ends of the wire. Is that correct?
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That is correct.
 
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