240v range outlet question

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Old 07-15-17, 05:03 PM
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240v range outlet question

I am replacing our old range in the kitchen. New range requires a 14-50r 4 wire outlet. The old outlet was connected with two black wires and bare metal ground wire. New one requires X, Y, G and W. I Don't have the Neutral that the new outlet requires. What are my options? Thank you for any help with this!
 
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Old 07-15-17, 05:09 PM
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Welcome to the forum.

To connect the range based on current code.... you'd need to replace your two wire cable with ground with a three wire cable with ground.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 06:03 PM
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Thank you. I was afraid that was what I would have to do. Is that even possible? How does someone replace a wire? Seems like you would have to open up the walls and ceilings.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 06:20 PM
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How does someone replace a wire? Seems like you would have to open up the walls and ceilings.
If you get lucky and the old cable is not stapled, you can attach the new cable to the old one and use the old one to pull the new one through.

But assuming it's stapled or otherwise immovable, you can abandon the old cable and fish a new one. How involved that is depends on how far you need to go, and where. You don't need to completely open up the walls; you can use holes in strategic locations. Then you can patch the holes. I like to make my holes in places where I wouldn't mind a receptacle outlet and put in 4 receptacles when I'm done instead of patching the hole. You can never have too many receptacles, you know. It is tedious and sometimes maddening trying to work through a 4" square hole though.

If you have an unfinished basement or crawl space or attic below/above the kitchen then you've got it made with no holes in the wall required.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 06:41 PM
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We have a finished basement below so it will definitely be a task to do. I have a feeling the physics of this wouldn't work but do they make an adapter that you can plug in? Like a conversion cord or something? I see them for a lot of the plugs but I doubt you can escape the need for a dedicated neutral.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 06:52 PM
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I have a feeling the physics of this wouldn't work but do they make an adapter that you can plug in?
Funny you should mention that, because I was just thinking of this the other day when reading someone else's similar thread. I don't know why a 1:1 center-tapped transformer wouldn't work to give you 240/120V on the output side. (Legalities aside.) If they made such a thing packaged into a big honkin' adapter, and that's a big if, I would expect it to be sold in Europe.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 08:01 PM
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Would this work? NEMA 10-50P to NEMA 14-50R Pigtail Adapter Cord I have a 10-50r outlet and a 14-50r plug.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 08:32 PM
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Would this work?
Only if you change the cable and trade your stove for a camping trailer. That is an adapter for an RV and maybe not code compliant even for that.

You need three insulated wires one of which is white plus a ground. No way around it.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 08:45 PM
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Bummer. Looks like I am calling an electrician on Monday. Thanks for the help!!!
 
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Old 07-15-17, 08:53 PM
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There are other ways if needed to run a new line. If it is a one story house you can run conduit outside to the attic and then fish it down in the wall from the attic. If one group of kitchen cabinets is against an outside wall you can run conduit outside either fastened to the wall or buried to the cabinet and then through the cabinet to the stove.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 07-15-17 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 07-15-17, 09:11 PM
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It seems to me that the OP currently has a 3 wire feed to his stove and only needs to change the range cord to a 3 wire cord, and connect the neutral and ground in the stove together. IMO this would be grandfathered in.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 09:15 PM
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IMO this would be grandfathered in.
That's a gray area.

If the appliance calls for a four wire receptacle... that's what should be used.
 
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Old 07-16-17, 06:13 AM
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I have yet to see a range that did not include provisions on the unit, and in the directions, to change from a 3 wire cord to a 4 wire cord and vice versa.

Of course, the OP should follow manufacture's requirements.
 
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Old 07-16-17, 07:37 AM
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But from a safety viewpoint is the no ground plus bare neutral even more unsafe the an insulated neutral and no ground?
 
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Old 07-16-17, 08:51 AM
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I would say no. They will terminate at the same point. The exception would be if the branch circuit is fed off a sub panel.
 
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Old 07-16-17, 11:33 AM
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The new electric ranges and dryers I have seen recently have all been set up at the factory for a 3-wire cord. They do, however, include instructions on how to convert them for a 4-wire cord connection.


240v range outlet question
Just a technicality, but your range requires 120/240 volts......not just 240 volts.
 
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Old 07-16-17, 11:55 AM
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But from a safety viewpoint is the no ground plus bare neutral even more unsafe the an insulated neutral and no ground?
No difference.... same three wires.

The OP can pick what he wants to do but needs to know the differences.

The three wire versus four wire debate will never end until more people are hurt.

The three wire system was ideal when the appliances were designed to require 240v only and ground. Now appliances are 120/240v and require a neutral to run the electronics, internal fans, motors. That requires four wires so that both neutral and ground are supplied to the appliance.

When a 120/240v appliance is converted to run on three wires..... it will work 100% fine. The problem is if the ground/neutral wire opens..... the case/frame of the appliance becomes live. An issue when touching the stove and sink.

I haven't seen the problem much with ranges but I see it all the time with electric dryers.
 
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Old 07-17-17, 06:21 PM
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So I hired an electrician, great guy, licensed, bonded, 40 years experience. He said there is something in the code for systems like this that allows you to convert the ground to a neutral and patch a new ground in from another power line. He was able to add a ground off of the power outlet on the island. He also installed some type of copper leads as well at the junction box. Seems to work great and we didn't have to cut all the walls open!
 
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Old 07-17-17, 06:26 PM
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He was able to add a ground off of the power outlet on the island
An island receptacle will only have a #12 for a ground wire. That would be too small for a 50 amp circuit. I question his installation method and code interpretation.
 
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Old 07-17-17, 08:32 PM
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He mentioned that it was big enough because the range only requires a 40 amp breaker not 50.
 
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Old 07-18-17, 06:53 PM
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Doubtful.

NEC Table 250.122 Minimum Size Equipment Grounding Conductor for Grounding Raceway and Equipment


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40 amps requires a #10 ground.
 
 

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