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Need tips on dealing with replacement of defective circuit-breaker panel

Need tips on dealing with replacement of defective circuit-breaker panel

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  #1  
Old 12-16-17, 01:47 PM
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Need tips on dealing with replacement of defective circuit-breaker panel

It turns out that my house, very unfortunately, has Federal Pacific circuit breakers, and a Federal Pacific main switch-- for those of you lucky enough not to have been touched by the Federal Pacific scandal, you probably don't know why the words "Federal Pacific" make my blood run cold! That company, now bankrupt and out of business, for decades produced and sold millions of circuit-breakers that they falsely claimed met the Underwriters Lab standards for circuit breakers. The result? Many homes in the US and Canada with circuit-breakers that often don't trip (in recent tests, up to 80% of the time!) when circuits dangerously overheat, resulting in an estimated 2800 electrical fires a year. For a summary of the scandal by the website Inspectapedia, go here:

https://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE_StabLok_Summary.htm

So, as a consequence of learning about this recently, and verifying the truth of the claims of danger in homes with these circuit-breakers, I decided to do as recommended and replace my circuit-breakers and main switch.

My question is: As someone who knows next to nothing about the general subject, I'd appreciate it if contributors to this forum could arm me with any tips that might prove useful as I engage an electrician to replace all the Federal Pacific items.

By the way, I assume power will have to be turned off to the entire house during the replacement procedure, so could I ask how long I'll be blacked out by this?
 
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Old 12-16-17, 02:46 PM
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You need what is called a service change out. This is generally not a DIY project unless you already have an extensive electrical construction background. Permits WILL need to be pulled and in many jurisdictions ONLY a licensed electrician can do the work. No one can tell you the entire scope of YOUR job without seeing it, or at least several pictures of the existing installation.

On the up side, in most cases it is a pretty straightforward job and, again, in most cases, can be completed in a single day by a competent electrical contractor. Yes, you will probably be without power for the better part of the day unless your contractor sets up a temporary generator.

Costs are, of course, variable depending on prevailing labor rates and permit costs but figure a minimum of $1500 dollars and don't be surprised if it goes a bit over $2000.
 
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Old 12-16-17, 05:23 PM
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Like Furd mentioned... pictures are a big help. Cover off the panel would be best.
How-to-insert-pictures
 
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Old 12-16-17, 05:32 PM
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Adding if it's an older under sized panel you may also need to also up grade the incoming wiring, (often done for free or low cost by the power company)
Just by the house?
This should have been a main thing the so called home inspector should have mentioned.
 
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Old 12-16-17, 05:39 PM
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I would advise a DIY not to attempt to remove the cover. The breakers often fall off the buss without the cover to hold them in.
 
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Old 12-16-17, 07:15 PM
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pcboss says, “I would advise a DIY not to attempt to remove the cover. The breakers often fall off the buss without the cover to hold them in.”

pcboss—me, a DIY with things electrical??????? Holy cow! I don’t have any delusions that I’m remotely at the level of even the most primitive DIY in the realm of electricity. Heck, I have to struggle a little to remember the Watts, Volts, Amps equation! No, my participation in this project will be confined to periodically bringing the electrician soft drinks!

But Furd’s comment that “in most cases, [the job] can be completed in a single day by a competent electrical contractor. Yes, you will probably be without power for the better part of the day unless your contractor sets up a temporary generator” has more significance for me than you guys realize. Right now, because of a horrifying mishap involving my boiler, I’m without the use of the natural gas that heats my home (in very cold New York City) and have been using electric heaters in its place— the reason I wanted to immediately replace the Federal Pacific circuit breakers was to enable me to safely add several more heaters to the ones I’m currently using. Therefore, if Furd is right about how long I’d be without power, I couldn’t possibly do it now-- the house would get too cold. I’m curious-- it seems like a pretty simple job, why should it take more than a couple of hours?


Joecaption, I don’t know if this is relevant to your comment about needing to upgrade the incoming wiring, but the main switch where the wiring enters the house has two circuit breakers (also by Federal Pacific!) and each is labeled 100. So I gather that I have 200 amps for the house. The problem is, I’m terrified to make full use of the power I have because if I overload a particular circuit--which is entirely possible when using multiple energy-hungry electric heaters in the house-- I fear that the Federal Pacific circuit breakers will be oblivious to what’s happening and I’ll burn to death in the resulting fire!
 
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Old 12-16-17, 08:08 PM
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it seems like a pretty simple job, why should it take more than a couple of hours?
It is simple process, but that does not mean it can be done easy. It takes time to mark which cable is which, then remove all existing cables and installing new panel and breakers.
You may have to (and should) upgrade the service as well, which will require replacing meter base and weather header outside.

Also, to do this job properly, power company has to come out and cut power to the house. They will literally cut the wire coming into the house from the pole (or underground).
Then, they have to come out again after the electrician is done with the job which may take them few hours.

If you don't have to upgrade the meter socket, some electricians will just cut the seal remove the meter by them selves, which will cut the power to the meter. Only power company is supposed to cut the seal, but some power companies will just not make a big deal about it.
Some brave (or stupid?) electricians will just work with a live wire. Just carefully remove incoming cable and tape it up. Since there is no breaker for this cable, it is very risky.
If this cable shorts out, it will continue arcing until the cable melts or transformer explode. There is a high voltage fuse somewhere, but will take quiet a lot of current to trip it.
 
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Old 12-17-17, 12:34 AM
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Lambition says, much to my perplexity, “You may have to (and should) upgrade the service as well, which will require replacing meter base and weather header outside.”

Lambition, I’m not sure what ‘replacing the meter base’ means exactly, nor why it will be a service upgrade I should do-- and I have no idea whatsoever of the meaning of the term ‘weather header’! I searched the web and could find nothing relevant! So please explain, lambition, or anyone for that matter who knows!

Lambition says, “Also, to do this job properly, power company has to come out and cut power to the house. They will literally cut the wire coming into the house from the pole (or underground).
Then, they have to come out again after the electrician is done with the job which may take them few hours.”

Is this really the case??? My Lord, if it is-- knowing how long it takes my local utility to respond in an emergency like a gas leak (45 minutes!)-- it might well take hours for them to come to reconnect the electricity! Not that I doubt you, lambition, but can somebody confirm that the local utility turns off at the pole the power to a home that is having the circuit breakers and main switches replaced? And then will come back later-- when it pleases them-- to restore the power?

Lambition says, “If you don't have to upgrade the meter socket, some electricians will just cut the seal remove the meter by them selves, which will cut the power to the meter. Only power company is supposed to cut the seal, but some power companies will just not make a big deal about it.”

So, I guess this is the alternative to having the utility turn off the power. Lambition says that some power companies won’t make a big deal about it if (or when) they discover the seal has been cut. Does anyone know how Con Edison-- the gas and electric company that serves my area of New York City-- reacts to the cutting of the seal by an electrician in order to do his work?

Lambition says, “Some brave (or stupid?) electricians will just work with a live wire. Just carefully remove incoming cable and tape it up. Since there is no breaker for this cable, it is very risky.
If this cable shorts out, it will continue arcing until the cable melts or transformer explode. There is a high voltage fuse somewhere, but will take quiet a lot of current to trip it.”

Again, I have to exclaim, “My Lord!” and ask if this is really true.

Lambition, I have to admit that everything you say does seem to make sense, but a) I know next to nothing about these electrical issues, and so I’m not really qualified to say whether it makes sense or doesn't and b) alll this has never been raised in all the reading I’ve done on the subject of replacing Federal Pacific circuit breakers and main switches. And it strikes me as odd that it wouldn’t have been.

In any event, I’d like some of the many people in this forum who, unlike me, are well-qualified to assess whether the claims you make in your post are valid or not, to please speak up!!
 
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Old 12-17-17, 09:04 AM
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Having had a chance to sleep on it, I want to present my situation more clearly, and although at first my problem might not seem to be electrical in nature, if you read on, you’ll see why the problem I’m bringing to this forum is, in fact, entirely electrical.

On Dec. 6, my natural gas boiler had a fire erupt inside it from a leaking pilot light supply line-- a fire that was in a location far removed from anything that was ever intended for that boiler-- and I’m lucky it didn’t burn my house down with me in it. The gas was turned off at the street by the local utility, Con Edison, and in the course of their visit, Con Ed’s instruments detected many gas leaks, minor and major, in the gas pipes around the basement. So, I had a licensed plumber come and perform an “integrity test” on the natural gas pipes and my house failed the integrity test badly, the plumber essentially confirming the findings of Con Edison. I had never smelled any gas in the basement, possibly due to my allergies, which cause nasal congestion.

But between the tremendous cost of fixing all leaks, and the time it would take to do that work and get all the required inspections by New York City and Con Edison, and then the additional time of having Con Ed come and dig up the street again (they had to use major earth-moving equipment on Dec. 6 to turn the gas off at the street because they couldn’t locate the shut-off valve) to turn the gas back on, plus my loss of trust in using natural gas because of the fire inside the boiler from the leak and my inability to smell gas leaks because of my allergies-- due to all those reasons, I decided to replace my natural gas boiler with an oil-burning boiler, still using the hot water radiator system I have in place, and to replace all other natural gas appliances I have-- basically the hot water heater and the stove-- with electrically-powered devices.

I can thus avoid the tremendous expense and time delay of dealing with the natural gas calamity in my house by not using natural gas anymore. So I’m now initiating the process of buying and installing a hot-water oil-burning boiler-- but in the meantime we’re without heat and freezing to death. I have three electric heaters in use to alleviate the chill in two rooms, but I’m afraid to deploy more heaters because of the defective and dangerous Federal Pacific circuit-breakers I have in my house. So I wanted to quickly replace the defective circuit-breaker panels and the main switch (also Federal Pacific) and deploy more heaters while we wait for the installation of the new boiler, and thus I started this thread-- I needed to get some info on the replacement process for the circuit-breaker panel and the main switch.

So it comes down to this-- posters to this thread already told me, to my surprise, that it would probably take all day for an electrician to do the job of replacement, during which time the power would be off, and then the last poster, lambition, added that the local utility would actually turn off the power to my house at the pole before the electrician began his work, and would have to come back to turn it on again after he finished, and there might be considerable delay in their doing that. If all that is true-- meaning we’d be without power, and without the electric heaters making things bearable, for probably 10 hours-- then of course I would abandon plans to replace the Federal Pacific stuff now, and we’d make do with the three heaters we’re using. So I want this forum to confirm that what lambition said is true-- that in order for an electrician to do this job, the local utility would first have to turn off the power to my home and we’d then have to wait for that utility to return to my home and restore the power.

I thank you all in advance for your help: I love the fact that I have a website I can go to that can give me solid, reliable information when I really need it!
 
  #10  
Old 12-17-17, 10:59 AM
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Looks like you have been given solid, reliable information based on your information/questions. I would suggest that you find someone in your area and get a few estimates for the repairs at which time they can give you some kind of time frame for the work to be completed.
 
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Old 12-17-17, 11:21 AM
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The first thing to do is to contact a couple licensed contractors and have them look at what you have now like Ron suggested. Tell the contractors your concerns. Considering the age of the existing electric service I wouldn't be at all surprised to find you need a complete service changeout including meter socket and service entrance wiring. Yes, this work will take a day by a competent contractor, but it may not be necessary to have the utility present to disconnect or reconnect the service. Many times the contractor can cut the service lines to complete their work and then temporarily reconnect the service lines pending the final inspection and wiring approval to the utility. Call a couple contractors and see what they have to say about the best way to complete the project in the shortest time.
 
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Old 12-17-17, 12:29 PM
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I agree with most the information posted here. (I didn't read it all ) Best course of action would be to have a few electrical contractors in your area give you some bids and information on the process in your area.

As others pointed out, different areas of the country had different procedures. For example, in my area we cut the meter seal, kill the power by pulling the meter. Do our work and temporally reconnect the new electrical service without the power company or an electrical inspection even happening that day. We then will call for inspection (likely the day after we do the work) and the inspector will then send an affidavit stating it is OK to reconnect to the power company. The power company will then get it on their schedule and reconnect the service permanently which can take 1-2 weeks. The home owner is only down for about 4-6 hours and completed job is 6-8 hours. Again, in is how we do it in MN.
 
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Old 12-17-17, 01:01 PM
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I'm with Tolyn. I will pull the meter or even cut the service drop. This is strictly dependent on the inspector in that area. The only place the power company must get involved is in a lateral service where the service must be cut at the transformer or pad if the meter pan needs replacement.

If the customer has a "need" I bring a generator. Many times I'll have a generator on site as it helps me with temporary lighting. Most electricians want the service replacement to go smoothly and will do everything they can to help you out.
 
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Old 12-17-17, 03:22 PM
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Tolyn Ironhand (I had to check to see if your nom de plume was borrowed from a superhero-- I’m out of the loop in that realm), I love having your real-life input-- as I do yours, PJmax-- and I conclude that, depending on the community-- and perhaps on the whim of a particular inspector-- the electrician might well be able to avoid the prior involvement, and delay, of the local utility.

Taking into account all considerations-- especially the five-day weather forecast for NYC, which contains none of the bitter cold that so tried our souls in the past week-- it makes the most sense to focus on getting the new oil-burning boiler installed and postpone the replacement of the defective Federal Pacific units until the future.

It’s been a pleasure coming back here to the DIY forums-- what a valuable service you guys provide! In fact, I’ll probably be returning in the next day or two: I may well need DIY assistance re the purchase of my new oil-burning hot-water boiler: I know even less about that subject than about the replacement of circuit-breaker panels!
 
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Old 12-17-17, 03:31 PM
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I forgot you're in NYC..... so your service is definitely underground and derived from a vault.

Area electricians know how to get the job done quickly so do check for several local contractor prices. I can tell you that you will find NYC prices higher then we would see in the suburbs.
 
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Old 12-17-17, 03:40 PM
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While the FPE panel should be replaced at some time, I think you are better off replacing the boiler. However, IMO you would be better off with a natural gas boiler then an oil boiler over the long haul.
Even with issues with your gas line I would think the gas company would be able to set up some type of temporary line to your boiler.
 
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Old 12-17-17, 04:58 PM
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One of the problems with a world-wide forum like this is that you will often get people that know only the requirements of their specific areas posting as if their requirements are universal. Then there are the terms used which can also vary from region to region. And my specific irritation comes from misspelled words.

I'll try to sort out some of the misspelled words/terms and such now.

SOME, but by no means all, utilities allow qualified electrical contractors to remove meters and or cut and reconnect service drops. If your serving utility requirements state that ONLY utility employees may do disconnects/reconnects then you are at their mercy in the matter.

A service drop is the overhead wiring from a utility pole to the customer's house. It will generally be spliced to the service entrance conductors (customer supplied) by the utility. Service entrance conductors are the wiring from the connection to the utility's service drop to the utility-supplied metering device and can be either a cable (multiple conductors contained in an outer sheath) or it can be individual wires contained inside conduit. Conduit may be made of steel, aluminum or in some cases plastic. At the top of the conduit or service entrance cable there will be a fitting called a weatherhead (not weather header) The weatherhead is simply a fitting that allows for the transition from open, conductors to the service cable or conduit that also precludes the entrance of rain. The service conductors terminate inside a meter base, which may be either customer or utility supplied depending on the serving utility. The meter base is sometimes called a socket or meter pan. The meter itself is supplied by the utility and "plugs in" to the base and is further "sealed" or locked into position by the utility. Any tampering of the seal or lock is considered to be an attempt to steal electricity and is prosecuted severely unless the homeowner notifies the utility in a timely manner.

If the power comes in underground the wiring is called a service lateral instead of a service drop. It still goes directly to the meter. Whether a drop or a lateral the wiring is sized by the utility to supply the electrical demand of the house. This sizing uses different rules than all wiring after the meter so often looks to be too small to a DIYer used to following the rules of the National Electrical Code (NEC). The service conductors continue from the meter to the first over current protective device (OCPD) which is generally the main circuit breaker in the main (service) panel. In some cases fuses are used or a single switch/circuit breaker enclosure will be used at this point which is the end of the service conductors. Everything past this main fuse or circuit breaker is then either a feeder or a branch circuit depending on what it serves.

Codes are rules on how specific parts of the electrical system are constructed. The National Electrical Code is the mode talked about but it must be stated that the NEC has no power of enforcement, it is advisory only UNTIL it is adopted into law by a local, regional or state legislative body. The enabling legislation has the power to add to or delete from the national code. For this reason ONLY the code enforced LOCALLY has any power of law.


Sometimes a new service can be installed in immediate proximity to the existing service without first disabling or removing the existing service. Once inspected and approved the wiring from the utility can usually be "swapped over" in a matter of minutes. When this is a viable option the old panel can often be powered from the new service and the individual circuits transferred from the old to the new on a more leisurely schedule. Unfortunately this is not always possible and sometimes it will require demolition of all the existing equipment before any of the new equipment can be mounted and wired.

Several pictures of your existing installation will help in any of us to make suggestions.
 
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Old 12-17-17, 07:10 PM
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Furd has already explained terms.

The reason you may need a service upgrade is your existing service probably is 100A or less and it may not be enough for a modern houses.

It will go a little faster if service upgrade is not necessary, especially if you have underground service.

I don't think a day without electricity will freeze you. It will be cold, but you will be ok.

Oil burner will cost you more in fuel cost and maintenance in long run. I think repairing gas line is the best option.
If there are multiple leaks, it may be easier and cheaper to just abandon existing line and switch over to CSST (Such as Wardflex, Gastite, or Proflex) or copper tubing.
It is not an easy job to repair a leak in steel gas pipe because you cannot just undo the fitting at a leak. You either have to remove all the fitting up to that point or cut the pipe in the middle, undo the fittings and repair leak, then cut thread on the pipe and connect with a union.
 
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Old 12-17-17, 07:42 PM
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One thing that everyone needs to keep in mind is that this is NYC and has it's own specific peculiarities.
1) the wiring could currently all be in conduit. That will compound a panel replacement.
2) since the service is underground and this may be an apartment type building... an upgrade could be difficult.
3) the gas line work will definitely need to be done by a licensed plumber.
Gas line work is taken very seriously there.

We really need to see a few picture of the existing panel before we add more information.
 
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Old 12-18-17, 06:13 PM
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Personally, I would not worry about upgrading the service unless you are planning on adding some new, larger, loads. there are hundreds of thousands of homes running just fine on a 100 amp service.
 
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Old 12-18-17, 09:04 PM
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Pjmax, just to correct a misconception: Though I live in NYC, the electric wires in my immediate neighborhood are NOT underground but still up on the telephone poles, with a line from the pole to each house. But on the main thoroughfares, a few blocks away from me, they ARE underground.

And Tolyn, the main switch in my house has two Federal Pacific circuit breakers, each marked 100, so I guess that means I have 200 amps, not 100, available to my house.

One question: a friend of mine said that his house has a switch before the electricity gets to the meter, so an electrician can turn off that switch and have all the electricity cut to the house, without having to break the seal on the meter and pull the meter. I told my friend that nobody in this thread had even mentioned that possibility and I could only hazard a guess that some utilities don't trust their customers and fear that they would flip that turn-off switch, connect the line directly to the line on the other side of the meter, bypassing the meter and getting their electricity for free! Is there any substance to my conjecture as to why switches like my friend described are not more common?
 
  #22  
Old 12-19-17, 01:16 AM
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We really, really need to see a picture of your service. What you describe as two 100 ampere circuit breakers...do these two CBs have their handles connected, by either a plastic or metal bar, so that they are both actuated at the same time? If yes, then it is a 100 ampere two pole CB and merely denotes a standard dual voltage three wire set up.

As for your friend, such a switch would be VERY unusual. Some very early installations, did have such a switch but any that still exist would likely also have a utility company "seal" on the enclosure to make any attempt at tampering immediately obvious to the meter reader.
 
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Old 12-19-17, 06:40 AM
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A two pole 100 amp breaker is still 100 amps. You do not add the handles together.
 
  #24  
Old 12-19-17, 10:48 AM
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I honestly think your best course of action is to call an electrician or two and have them take a look. They will be able to give you more information in the 10-15 minutes they are there than we could ever give you here. They will be able to tell you what parts need to be replaced, whether they can set up a temporary generator to keep heat going, or if there are any issues with getting the whole project done in a few hours.

For a qualified electrician, it sounds like it should be a pretty easy project - though will certainly take a few hours (3-6) to complete.
 
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Old 12-19-17, 04:34 PM
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a friend of mine said that his house has a switch before the electricity gets to the meter, so an electrician can turn off that switch and have all the electricity cut to the house, without having to break the seal on the meter and pull the meter.
Some jurisdictions require such a switch outside so the fireman get cut electricity to the house in case of fire. As far as I know most areas don't require it. For most people, it just adds more cost and it go rarely used.
One downside is someone can cut electricity from outside to just screw you. You could install a lockable disconnect switch to solve that problem.
Also disconnect switch will be either fused or have a breaker and now this is your main panel. Your panel inside home will be considered a sub panel and ground and neutral has be be separated.
 
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