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Advice Needed - running a new 40 Amp 240V circuit in partially finished basement

Advice Needed - running a new 40 Amp 240V circuit in partially finished basement

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  #1  
Old 01-27-18, 07:11 AM
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Advice Needed - running a new 40 Amp 240V circuit in partially finished basement

I could use some advice / best practices. I need to run a 40 Amp 240V circuit in my basement.

The outlet will be on the same wall as the panel, approximately 20ft away from the panel. The Panel is in a finished room and the outlet will be in an unfinished utility room. The finished room will take up approximately 12ft of the 20ft run.

There's about a 3-4" gap (filled with fiberglass roll insulation) between the concrete foundation and the framing of the finished room. This is where I'd prefer to run the circuit, as it's relatively easy access to the panel. Alternatively, I could run it in the ceiling (parallel to the joists) of the finished room, but I'd have to contend with an HVAC duct.

So my question is, which type of cabling should I used? 8/3 BX/armored cable or 8/3 Romex or do I need to run a solid conduit? keep in mind, I'd prefer not to rip open the finished walls.

Also, can I run it in the gap between foundation and framing? or does it need to be in the ceiling.

Thanks in Advance!
 
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Old 01-27-18, 09:05 AM
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8/3 NM B Would be fine, can you run the cable up from the panel and along the sill ? That would be preferred .
Geo
 
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Old 01-27-18, 09:12 AM
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Yes I can run it up from the panel to the ceiling cavity and pull it ~12ft along the ceiling drywall into the unfinished utility room. Any issues with the cable just laying on top of the ceiling?

My understanding is that from there, I'd need a junction box and solid conduit, (because it's an unfinished area). Is that correct?
 
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Old 01-27-18, 09:31 AM
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So the ceiling is drywall attached directly to the floor joists or strapping, you can fish the cable in there no problem, from there what does it connect to? You can install a board or 2X4 on to the concrete and clip the cable to that,no need for pipe.
Geo
 
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Old 01-27-18, 09:49 AM
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the run would be from the panel, up into ceiling, 12ft across the ceiling and then into the unfinished utility room, from there I need to run it about 10 ft to where the outlet will be.

I figured I'd put a junction box right as the line enters the unfinished room and transition to solid conduit to make the rest of the run to the receptacle box (about 10 feet)
 
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Old 01-27-18, 01:12 PM
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You can certainly do it like that,can you post a pic or 2 of the area were the cable will exit into the unfinished area,which direction are the joists running.
Geo
 
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Old 01-27-18, 01:49 PM
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Sounds like a good plan. How-to-insert-pictures
 
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Old 01-27-18, 02:02 PM
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foundation is on the right, picture taken looking up at an angle.

The main panel is about 10-12 feet away on the foundation wall. The pictured Coax runs terminates there.
You can also see the cavity between the foundation and the interior wall.

 
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Old 01-27-18, 02:56 PM
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So it looks like you would the cable in the bay with the PVC , will the new recetacle be on that concrete wall? if so keep the cable up on top of the foundation clipped to the sill, what are you using for a receptacle?
Geo
 
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Old 01-27-18, 05:15 PM
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You could pull cable the whole way.
 
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Old 01-28-18, 01:38 PM
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I should have checked the codes first.. but the way I'm reading it, I'm required to run conduit.


My county follows NEC 2011, with some exceptions, notably:
- All electrical services shall be rigid metal conduit, or intermediate metal conduit.


page 19:
http://www.willcountyillinois.com/Po...-02-122245-500
 
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Old 01-28-18, 02:10 PM
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You are not running a service. You are running a feeder or branch circuit.
 
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Old 01-28-18, 05:38 PM
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You're not running a service, but it sounds like you need to use conduit anyway because of the item immediately preceding the one you quoted:

(D) Electrical metallic tubing (thin wall) shall be required throughout all structures, however, it shall not be installed underground or in concrete.

That's very poorly written, but I think they were trying to say you're not allowed to run cable in addition to the EMT required throughout the structure.
 
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Old 01-29-18, 04:29 AM
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That is poorly written,have you checked with inspectional services and see what they say. Is any of the other wiring in the building in conduit ?
Geo
 
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Old 01-29-18, 05:54 AM
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Sounds lime EMT is the only option . I noticed other examples where they go beyond the NEC also.
 
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Old 01-29-18, 01:24 PM
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Nope. The O.P. lives in a Chicago suburb and all conductors must be in metal conduit (thinwall) - whether behind a wall or whatever. Local codes always trump the NEC. He doesn't need to use cable - just pull building wire. Conduit is required in the City of Chicago, and many suburbs. A diyer might get away with Romex, but when it comes time to sell the house, look out.
 

Last edited by Mike Speed 30; 01-29-18 at 03:37 PM.
  #17  
Old 01-29-18, 04:04 PM
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Yep, you're right.. I had an electrician come out to give me a quote and he said that conduit must be run

quoted me $900 bucks for the job, which seemed excessive. I asked him for a parts / labor break down. and he said he doesn't provide that, which I found strange.
 
  #18  
Old 01-30-18, 11:58 AM
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There are really two ways to estimate jobs like this -- a bid price or a time + materials + expenses price. It sounds like he gave you a bid price. It's pretty common, some guys prefer one way or the other.
 
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Old 01-30-18, 03:39 PM
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I asked him for a parts / labor break down. and he said he doesn't provide that, which I found strange.
He wants $xxx profit from the job, and nothing good can come from providing you with a breakdown. He sees romex and tools lying around while looking over stuff, and he knows he can't get away with charging you $300 for $50 of materials. Or the homeowner will start pulling stuff like buying their own materials. So now if the electrician even accepts this arrangement, now the labor rate has to change (as in get jacked way up) and the homeowner feels cheated. When you realize you're paying $800 for "labor" (and overhead, and business owner profit) it doesn't seem nice. Nothing good can come out of this except for starting an argument with the homeowner, especially after they sense that you don't like the price.
 
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Old 01-30-18, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by core View Post
He wants $xxx profit from the job, and nothing good can come from providing you with a breakdown. He sees romex and tools lying around while looking over stuff, and he knows he can't get away with charging you $300 for $50 of materials. Or the homeowner will start pulling stuff like buying their own materials. So now if the electrician even accepts this arrangement, now the labor rate has to change (as in get jacked way up) and the homeowner feels cheated. When you realize you're paying $800 for "labor" (and overhead, and business owner profit) it doesn't seem nice. Nothing good can come out of this except for starting an argument with the homeowner, especially after they sense that you don't like the price.
I did not read this entire thread but this post is precisely why I got myself to learn doing my own stuff. This type of rip off scheme in this country is unreal.

Before I came to this site and learned what I know now (which isnt much but its good enough) I was quoted $750 for running a 12/2 cable to my garage for a 20 amp GFCI outlet for my car lift. My basement is unfinished and it's about 30 ft of 12/2 cable, and a metal box and a GFCI outlet. I have done the same myself for literally 1/5th of the price. Yes everyone has to eat but this is getting to the point of electricians taking advantage of people.

I was also quoted $50 per outlet to convert the old 2 prong outlets to grounded 3 prong outlets (NOT GFCI!).

I was also quoted $150 to install 1 GFCI outlet in an existing outlet.

I was also quoted $250 to rewire a switched neutral.

I can go on and on. The amount of work I have done in my house right now by my estimates would have costed me over $12,000 of electrician time which cost me about $1500 (I did spend a lot for LED fixtures etc). Again I understand people have to put food on the table, but this is at another level.

Also to add to core's point, yes if they even sense that you have more than half of human brain and you have material/etc they suddenly become "unreachable". This kind of thing would be illegal anywhere in Europe, and I dont understand how they let this go here.
 
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Old 01-31-18, 06:38 AM
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Also to add to core's point

Well actually I didn't have a point, and I certainly didn't mean to say that it's some kind of racket. All I meant to say was that it's a see-saw: You wanna complain about materials, well I'll just give it to you on the other items. You better just bend over and take it because that's what the total price is. You want breakdowns I'll invent some.

The guy wants $xxx when he's done. Period. That's all. Homeowner starts sqwaking and it's time to walk away.

Personally I don't think $150 is bad for a GFCI. I mean, you never know what you're going to find. You have to charge for the median. And personally I don't drive to a house for less than $150 unless she's really hot. Then again, I'm not an electrician. So I have to charge the jackleg fee on top of all of it.
 
  #22  
Old 01-31-18, 01:00 PM
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Remember he's also running a business in a highly-regulated area, and those costs have to passed through. In some areas permit, inspection, prep and tax fees alone can total several hundred dollars per job.

If you don't feel comfortable with a contractor or the price, always get other estimates to find the going rate for this job. Pick someone in the middle of the pack who you feel comfortable having around your house. Make sure to ask questions to ensure the contractors have the same thing in mind, and always ask for license number and insurance. Many areas you can check the validity of the license online to make sure you're getting a reputable contractor who will treat you fairly according to the local market.
 
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Old 01-31-18, 04:48 PM
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If you want to know what's a racket, it's Chicagoland and their EMT requirement. Yeah, I understand why they're concerned about fire, but they should be banning Irish cows in barns, and not requiring EMT. The only reason the conduit requirement is still in place is because of blue collar union workers wanting to protect their racket. I gotta give it to those guys though, running EMT through in-place walls has gotta be an art form. Coupler manufacturers probably make out OK, too
 
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