Quad Breaker Help!

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Old 05-08-18, 02:37 PM
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Quad Breaker Help!

Hello all, I am trying to replace a Siemens Quad Breaker 30 amp that failed a Home Inspection for a friend. It is a QT Type and it needs to be QP Type. It doesn't fit into the panel correctly. According to the Local Electrical Supply House they don't make the Quad breaker anymore. It is powering the A/C and Hot Water Heater according to labels. My Question is Can I just get (2) 30 AMP double pole breakers instead. Looks like who ever did the HVAC upgrade did this. I've included pics if this helps.
 
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Old 05-08-18, 02:59 PM
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Hi, You apparently don’t have space in the panel for 2 2 pole breakers, is the issue with the inspector the QT breaker being installed?
Geo
 

Last edited by Geochurchi; 05-08-18 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 05-08-18, 04:08 PM
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What does the panel sticker show?
ITE is now Siemens
QP=standard Siemens
QT=tandem Siemens

Eaton bought the Challenger line so may need to use https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-BR...0230/100118580 (this is a Challenger Type A breaker)


Also possible that spot of the panel is not supposed to have a tandem installed there.
 
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Old 05-08-18, 05:01 PM
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Post a picture of the label on the door for us.
 
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Old 05-08-18, 07:25 PM
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You may not substitute the quad breaker with two single wide double breakers unless they can be fitted with the same kind of handle ties you have pictured (for first and fourth handles and for second and third handles). You may substitute with two double wide double breakers but you will need to have or find spaces for them.
 
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Old 05-08-18, 07:28 PM
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t is a QT Type and it needs to be QP Type.
You will not going to find type QT quadplex breaker because they are only made in tandem.

Are you sure your panel is supposed to have type QP?
Challenger panel should have Type A or Type C, which has been replaced with Type BR.

Type QP will fit and work fine because it is essentially the same design, but still a code violation.

Also, make sure your panel allows tandem breakers in the first place.
 
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Old 05-08-18, 07:56 PM
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Check the label to see what breakers are for use in the panel.
 
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Old 05-09-18, 04:52 AM
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Iíve included pics in original post of what is currently in the panel. All filled with Siemens Type QP breakers. The Inspector failed it for not properly being seated fully down into panel. You can see that in pictures. They way itís wired is it suppling 220v to both the hot water heater and a/c? Why does the breaker have to have the tie bars? What label are you requesting picture of?
 

Last edited by davedub69; 05-09-18 at 05:02 AM. Reason: Additional info
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Old 05-09-18, 05:14 AM
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There should be a label on the inside of the panel cover stating which breakers that panel can have.
Geo
 
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Old 05-09-18, 05:24 AM
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Geo, Thanks! I'll swing over to the property and get some pictures this morning. I really appreciate all the help!
 
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Old 05-09-18, 06:56 AM
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A home inspector cannot fail anything . They observe and report. They have no enforcement powers. Whether an item from the report is fixed is a negotiation between the seller and buyer.
 
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Old 05-09-18, 08:38 AM
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I found zero stickers! Is this a safety concern? Here are more pictures of which breakers are currently in panel.
 
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Old 05-09-18, 09:37 AM
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That is a 30 space panel. From that era it most likely takes a max of 40 circuits with tandems only allowed on the bottom 10 spaces. So current quad is not fitting because it doesn't belong there.

Best to buy two double pole 30 amp breakers and move the a/c or hot water to a different location.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...230U/100002289

That being said I don't recall anything showing that Siemens (or old ITE) were allowed in Challenger panels. Proper would be new Eaton BR and BD - Still have Challenger A, C IDs on them.
 

Last edited by Astuff; 05-09-18 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 05-09-18, 09:40 AM
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The labels are normally on the side of the panel, not on the back panel inside.
 
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Old 05-09-18, 10:34 AM
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Astuff, so you are saying all the breakers in the panel are incorrect??? So the easiest fix is to buy 2 new breakers install in open slots and extended black and red wires with wire nuts and same gauge wire???
 
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Old 05-09-18, 01:47 PM
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The panel should not have had anything except Challenger breakers installed.

Challenger breakers are obsolete as far as I know. New old stock may be available .
 
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Old 05-09-18, 02:31 PM
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Remove quadplex breaker and take a look at tab of the bus bar. It should have a slot cut out in the middle like empty slots in your picture. If not, you have to move them to lower slots.
As far as I know all of the breakers in your panel is incorrect type if it really is Challenger panel. You can use Type BR or BD from Eaton.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about Siemens breakers inside Challenger, but the qaudplex breaker not fully seated must be fixed.
 
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Old 05-09-18, 02:43 PM
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Without having a panel's label (usually on the back of the door) it is hard to prove what is/was allowed. There are lots of references to Challenger now using Eaton. Getting the inspector on board might be an issue.

From https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-BR...R230/100114666
Type BR breakers are UL approved genuine replacement breakers for load centers made by Westinghouse, Challenger and Bryant
It may not be right but go by the inspector said use Siemens QP then do that and go on with things. Yes, extend black and red with wire nuts. 10 gauge copper wires.
 
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Old 05-13-18, 07:18 AM
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Here is a letter from Eaton,

January 24, 2012
To Whom It May Concern,
EATON Corporation has been contacted to advise Electrical Inspectors and others regarding the suitability of residential circuit breakers manufactured by EATON for use in Challenger, Cutler-Hammer, Westinghouse or Bryant load centers that do not reference EATON residential circuit breakers.
In an effort to update the UL letter dated August 11, 1998, I am providing a current Compatibility Table for reference use. This table should be used to identify specific EATON residential circuit breakers Types that can be used to replace Challenger, Cutler-Hammer, Westinghouse or Bryant Types in equipment and load centers that are marked as being suitable for the use of Challenger, Cutler-Hammer, Westinghouse or Bryant circuit breakers. The chart tabulates the EATON Types and the corresponding Challenger, Cutler-Hammer, Westinghouse or Bryant Types that are interchangeable.
Please copy and forward this letter to those needing the information. If there any questions, please feel free to contact me.
Sincerely,
Joe Fello Application Engineer Eaton Corporation (412) 893-3745
Eaton Corporation Residential Products Division 1000 Cherrington Parkway Moon Township, PA 15108

In field installations, the circuit breaker Types bearing the EATON name are suitable for replacement of the equivalent residential circuit breaker Types with the Challenger, Cutler-Hammer, Westinghouse or Bryant name in circuit breaker load centers, and the like, which are marked as being suitable for use with the Challenger, Cutler-Hammer, Westinghouse or Bryant Type residential circuit breakers contained in the following list:
Circuit Breaker Description
AIC
Rating EATON
Cutler-Hammer
Westinghouse
Challenger
Bryant
Standard Thermal Magnetic Duplex/Quadplex
Standard Thermal Magnetic Standard Thermal Magnetic Standard Thermal Magnetic Specialty Breakers
10k Type BR 10k Type BRD 22k Type BRH 42k Type BRHH 65k Type BRX 10k Type BRO 10k Type GFCB 22k Type GFCBH 10k Type GFEP 22k Type GFEPH 10k Type BR 10k Type BW 25k Type BWH 42k Type BWHH 10k Type CC 10k Type QFL 10k Type QFP
Type BR Type BRD Type BRH Type BRHH Type BRX Type BRO Type GFCB Type GFCBH Type GFEP Type GFEPH Type BR Type BW Type BWH Type BWHH Type CC Type QFL Type QFP
Type BR
Type BRD Type BRH Type BRHH
Not Available Type BRO Type GFCB Type GFCBH Type GFEP Type GFEPH Not Available Not Interchangeable Not Interchangeable Not Interchangeable Not Interchangeable Type WFL
Type C
Type BR
Type BRD Type BRH Type BRHH
Not Available Type BRO Type GFCB Type GFCBH Type GFEP Type GFEPH Not Available Not Interchangeable Not Interchangeable Not Interchangeable Not Interchangeable Not Interchangeable Not Interchangeable
GFI People Protection
GFI People Protection
GFI Equipment Protection GFI Equipment Protection Arc Fault Circuit Protection Load Center Main
Type A Type HC Type VC Type XC Type C Type HAGF Type HAGFH Type HAGFEP Type HAGFHEP Not Available Type CM
Load Center Main Load Center Main Load Center Main Load Center Main Load Center Main
Type WFP
Type CMH Type CMV Type CB Type QFL Type QFP
Eaton Corporation Residential Products Division 1000 Cherrington Parkway Moon Township, PA 15108
Circuit Breaker Brand Name and Type
 
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