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please explain questions about plumbing pipes bonded with ground

please explain questions about plumbing pipes bonded with ground

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  #1  
Old 08-03-18, 06:28 PM
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please explain questions about plumbing pipes bonded with ground

Im having some confusing and hoping my questions can be answered,
I find my info surfing the net if i have mistaken info please correct me.

So from what i gather the main panel or in some cases meter has a ground wire that connects to its /n that should go to an earth rod and an outside water pipe.

then they say the inside plumbing pipe should be connected to that main ground/neutral buss, with jumpers at the hot cold at water heater and any connections,
In some cases wouldnt that be redundant as the main g/n is already connected to that water pipe outside?

And in a case like mine, while i do have a backyard water faucet metal pipe and its connected to the main g/n my water feed going into the house is pvc then it joins to copper,
That copper house pipe is connected to the main g/n, should it be in this case?

Why is it desirable to have the houses water pipes connected to g/n?

Doesnt that connection to mains g/n make all the water pipes a neutral leg?

Thanks for the help,
Cheers
b
 
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  #2  
Old 08-03-18, 07:20 PM
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The electricity want.to go back to it's source. It is not going into the pipes. Metallic water lines can form an effective electrode since they are typically in constantly moist soil. Their purpose is for high voltage events like lightning strikes.

The jumpers between not and cold and gas is to eliminate any voltage potential between.and.minimize shock.
 
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Old 08-03-18, 07:42 PM
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Thanks,

What about in my case, the copper pipes in the house do not enter the earth anywhere,
They are fed by pvc,

So why would i want my inside pipes connected to the main g/n?
 
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Old 08-03-18, 09:49 PM
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What about in my case, the copper pipes in the house do not enter the earth anywhere,
They are fed by pvc,
More reason to ground your pipes.

Metallic pipes can become hot from any electrical short to the pipe. It can also attract lighting strikes.
You want a path for this electricity to flow safely out to ground. If your water pipes are metallic all the way under the ground, it will be grounded through the section of pipe underground. If it is non-metallic, there will be no path to ground without ground wire and energized pipe can electrocute you or lighting strike can jump through your body.
 
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Old 08-03-18, 11:44 PM
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In my case no, my copper pipe doesnt enter the earth.

But then in other houses where supply line does enter earth and outside is used as a ground then if it wasnt interrupted by non conducting connections adding a ground line to it inside would seem redundant to me.

Here lies a big issue in my case,

While the new copper pipe is bonded back to the g/n at the meter which is grounded to an earth rod and an old water yard pipe this house was built in 1909 its 2 stories not counting the attic and basement which are both 2k sqft so there is a lot of defunct galvanized pipe some was supply some drain, and larger iron drain,
None of the galvanized supply pipe is working some drains are replaced with pvc,
Some has been cut who knows where,
It would be impossible without tearing out every wall, ceiling and floor to know all of it is bonded together and grounded,

I didnt see mention of the iron drain pipes being grounded.
 
  #6  
Old 08-04-18, 05:20 AM
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adding a ground line to it inside would seem redundant to me.
That is the point. You want to make sure the pipe has good ground.

I didnt see mention of the iron drain pipes being grounded.
Drain lines are generally not in direct contact with what a person may touch. Also, they would have been grounded through drain pipe under the slab when the house was built.
Since you have replaced some sections with PVC, you have lost grounding, but then it is rare for you to get electrocuted by drain line.
 
  #7  
Old 08-04-18, 06:54 AM
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Connecting your electrical to your water piping serves two purposes:

Grounding: In combination with ground rods, a metal pipe going into the ground ensures the potential between the hot/ground and literally the ground remain at 120/240 as expected. Surges, lightning, and atmospheric weather could cause the literal ground you walk on to be at a different potential, causing all sorts of bad things. You don't have a metal water main, so grounding is through (hopefully) a ground rod or two. New installs require both grounding the water main (if metal) AND 1 or 2 ground rods.

Bonding: Connecting your electrical ground to all metal items in your house (plumbing, telephone, cable tv, metal cladding, etc) ensures that all metal is 0v between each other. Otherwise, there are cases, where your cable tv ground could actually be at a different potential than your electrical ground. This could cause a shock, or electronics shorting out. By bonding everything together, you're ensuring 0v is actually 0v throughout your entire house. It also ensures that if a live wire touches something metal - it will trip the breaker.
 
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Old 08-04-18, 08:57 AM
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Many thanks all, im grasping it, i appreciate it, im really learning something here and i really like that.

Thanks for the heads up and clue it on the big iron waste pipes.

In comment to what Zorftd posted,

In my case its a bit complicated, the main water supply enters the basement pvc it has a cut off in the basement also pvc then it connects to copper there is a line from that copper outside to the meter where the ground wire is connected to the neutral lug in the meter, the city would have done this i suspect.
And the copper pipes are bonded at the water heater hot and cold and we dont have gas.

That meter ground also runs down to a copper 8 foot earth rod then from that over to a water pipe which is outside goes into the earth and does flow water,
At this time I do not plan to dig up the yard to see where the city water feed Ts off to feed both the house and that outside faucet,
Worst case here if you think its needed i will run another copper earth rod.

On to grounds and breakers,
So then lets say just as example we have a metal box in the wall with a light switch and that metal box is connected to ground,
And for some reason or another the switches hot lead touches that metal box the breaker should pop off?
But if that box wasnt connect to ground but had that hot lead touching it would then touching the box or a screw that holds trim plate to box bite you?

So if i have this right,
touching a live neutral lead doesnt bite you its same as touching a ground wire which dont bite,

Would touching the hot lead bite you if its all you touch?

Again many thanks all!
 
  #9  
Old 08-04-18, 09:38 AM
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"At this time I do not plan to dig up the yard to see where the city water feed ..."
It is not necessary or desirable to dig up the yard to prove whether a water pipe is a good and sufficient grounding electrode (to attach a fat ground wire from the panel to). Assume it is good unless you already know it is not such as run fewer than 10' underground or is plastic.

"So why would i want my inside pipes connected to the main ground/neutral in the panel?"
A. For those with a metal cold water pipe exiting the house the main ground/neutral is bonded to that.
B. Metal plumbing is supposed to be bonded to the main ground/neutral.
For those with all metal plumbing the work (stringing wire, etc.) to perform A will satisfy both A and B.

"Would touching the hot lead bite you if its all you touch?"
The probability is near zero.

"But if that box wasn't connect to ground but had that hot lead touching it would then touching the box or a screw that holds trim plate to box bite you?"
There is a significant probability it would bite you if you were standing barefooted on a concrete basement floor. A very high probability if that floor were wet.

"and that metal box is connected to ground,
And for some reason or another the switches hot lead touches that metal box the breaker should pop off?"
Correct, but depends on the quality of the ground connection. Metal conduit properly installed is an excellent connection to ground but over the decades less than properly installed conduit can develop oxidation and poor connection at joints with boxes along the way, couplings between lengths of conduti, etc. Ground wires not properly joined at outlet boxes with wire nuts can also develop loose connection. A poor ground path might fail to trip a breaker if a live wire up in the house touched a grounded object (a fault occurred) and fault current smaller than the breaker rating but large enough to electrocute you could continue to flow and voltage from a point near where the live wire touched relative to other grounded objects or wet floors could be significant.
 

Last edited by AllanJ; 08-04-18 at 10:08 AM.
  #10  
Old 08-04-18, 12:50 PM
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Big thanks Allen,

I know the earth ground rod is 8 foot copper,
The outside working metal water pipe is likely at least 50ft but i dont know how deep, i have an extra 8 ft copper earth rod should i add it too?


In this case i do know the grounds and bonding on what i will call the meter panel end is good,

But the kitchen end not so much so, it was done at least 20 years ago but likely closer to 30, it is 3 wire including ground but who know if hooked up correctly and i want to know,

Up around the prep area where floresent fixtures shining down thru panels looks 70s,

At least half didnt work i climbed up there and tried new bulbs but some still would not light, some just hummed,
Tina my wife wanted me to disconbect them and i did but also saw what i consided pretty darn hack jobbed, they were daisy chained together the hots and neutrals twisted with tool with wire nut not bad but the grounds so halfassed twisted by hand to whatever part of the fuxture some just bascially fell off when i moved them,

im going to replace the switches and sockets in the kitchen,
Even good ones are not expensive and the one i opened is gross,
If you have damp fingers get ready for a tingle....


Again,
Thanks all,
 
  #11  
Old 08-04-18, 02:57 PM
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Circuit grounding for switched and receptacles has nothing to do with ground rods or water lines. Two entirely different purposes with a similar name .
 
  #12  
Old 08-04-18, 03:39 PM
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Pcboss, right,

Zorftd explained it several posts back....
 
  #13  
Old 08-05-18, 06:07 AM
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Very interesting thread. I was about to post my own questions regarding the similar topic.

I was reading in my Stanley book on Wiring, that for old houses with no ground wiring, one can just buy a clamp for a water-pipe, then run a green/bare copper wire from that to a socket saving a huge expense. Of course, certain local codes now prevent this as a fix.

My girlfriend on the other hand, has been panicking over this solution. She wonders, if a short occurs and that current goes into the copper piping in the house, what happens to someone having a shower near by at that moment.
 
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Old 08-05-18, 06:14 AM
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one can just buy a clamp for a water-pipe, then run a green/bare copper wire from that to a socket saving a huge expense.
Older code must connect to main ground within five feet of the panel. Newer code allows you to connect to a correctly grounded receptacle but just clamping to a water pipe is not allowed.
 
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Old 08-05-18, 06:42 AM
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Well now I am sooooooooooo confused!

I just looked again at the Stanley COMPLETE WIRING textbook.

It continually states that for older houses without grounding wires, that one can connect receptacles to COLD WATER piping with green/bare wire.

Turn to page 27 to start....
 
  #16  
Old 08-05-18, 07:33 AM
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What is the publication date on that copy of Stanley's Complete Wiring textbook?

Yes you can ground an otherwise or previously ungrounded receptacle by running a separate ground wire (equipment grounding conductor) from it exactly, approximately or vaguely following the route of the power feed for that receptacle back to the panel. The far end of the newly run EGC is normally run to the panel with the breaker for the branch circuit in question. Should the new EGC first reach a fat ground wire (grounding electrode conductor) coming from a panel and going to a ground rod or to a (metal) water pipe within 5' of where the latter exits the house undeground the new EGC may end there. New: The new EGC can also end at another, properly grounded, outlet box.

Run the new EGC to the nearest water pipe? No go. What if, say, in this house without ground wires, none of the water pipes are grounded? Now you could attach the new EGC to the 5 or fewer foot section of pipe between where the GEC is attached and where the pipe exits through the foundation wall.
 
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Old 08-05-18, 11:41 AM
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Again thats all who are helping folks like me and the apprentice,

Apprentice,
This stuff can be confusing, i try to do things by code i figure thats a good baseline but codes change and are different in different places so that can get complicated in my mind.

Like heres an example in my case, my hiuse built in 1909 has mixed wiring, a few ceiling lights dates back to ungrounded knob and tube,
Then a lot is moderen,

I have a basement sub panel, in a sub the ground and neutral busses are not bonded together but it has to have its ground buss bonded or connected to the main panels ground buss which in a main only the ground and neutral are bonded together,

From that mains g/n buss that has to go to earth ground in my case an 8 foot copper rod and a metal plumbing pipe which those two are in turn connected together,
fun so far?

My inside house copper pipe is new and doesnt connect to the underground city water supply due to a pvc cut off so my copper pipe after that pvc has to also be connect to that main ground, since at water heater the water pipe gets a break the hot and cold pipes need to be bonded.

In my case that sub panel had 3 feed wires, 2 hots and a neutral it should have had a 4th, a ground running back to the panels main ground/neutral buss,

So my first idea since a copper pipe which is bonded with the mains g/n is right here near that sub i will do a clamp on it and run my ground wire from it to my subs ground buss and be good right?
Nope, while that is okay in Canada its not okay here, why not okay here?
I assume it has to do with codes not if it works or not, works in canada,
That i have yet to have had this explained to me,

In your case i believe you are desiring protection from shock and i thought that means your ground has to go to a sub panels ground buss or mains g/n buss, to pop a breaker,

But if the pipe you connect your ground wire to, if that pipe is also connect to the mains g/n buss why wouldnt that work? Someone might explain this i hope.

Of course if your main panel isnt earth grounded thats a different but bad problem, i spent 2 days in 98 degree weather getting mine right.

I very well might have worded something incorrectly,
Answers to stuff like this is why i made this thread,
You will learn lots of cats try to help but if youre like me it takes a certain way of having it explained to grasp it,

Cheers
b
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Old 08-05-18, 11:49 AM
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This would be be a great thread to have a basic explanation of EGC and GEC their purposes, theory etc,

I believe i grasp it but i sure cant put it into words as well as some of these savvy cats.

Thank
b
 
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Old 08-05-18, 02:07 PM
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In your case i believe you are desiring protection from shock and i thought that means your ground has to go to a sub panels ground buss or mains g/n buss, to pop a breaker,
A properly grounded circuit will not protect you from shock in all cases, but it should open the circuit protection (circuit breaker or fuse).
 
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Old 08-05-18, 03:07 PM
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Thanks Joe

I am hoping that what i have in my mind is correct,
That for example person in bathtub knocks running blow dryer into tub a breaker will pop before it kills you...correct?

But if you carelessly pull a plug out of the socket and touch both hot and neutral you will likely live but get a bite.


Heres a scary story,

At my old house in orlando i was doing chores out back and was tired, laid down next to pool thinking to roll in and cool off,
There was an old plug in pool cleaner running but i had swam with it many times,

I didnt know 20 plus years ago how bad that was,

So i when to touch the water to check temp it bit me hard, a different type shock almost felt like it pulled at me,
I freaked out, ran over killed all the pool breakers, pump, light, cleaner and no more bite.

Later i had an electrician tell me had i jumped it and just floated i wouldnt have got zapped but touch the sides or bottom and it would have killed me....

I still get a heebie jeebie on that one....my guardian angle was looking my way that day....
 
  #21  
Old 08-06-18, 06:09 AM
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U.S. code does not allow pipes to be part of the equipment grounding conductor path even though properly soldered copper pipe works excellently for that purpose.

But pipes may be parts of the grounding of a plumbing system in the sense that if a portion of metal pipe is orphaned by a length of plastic pipe, a bonding jumper may bridge the plastic pipe as opposed to run all the way to a grounding electrode conductor or to a panel.

As far as grounding of pre-existing parts goes, you have to have faith and assume it is good, or conduct tests possibly using expensive equipment to prove it so or prove it otherwise.

We start by assuming that the ground path from the main panel through the meter to utility pole, which is the same conductor as the nuetral path, is good. We start by assuming that rigid metal conduit, when used for wiring and required in a few cities like Chicago, is a good and sufficient EGC. We start by assuming that a conglomeration of Romex wiring with ground wires in the cables was properly hooked up although if we find one outlet box that was not properly hooked up we will be suspicious that errrors exist and grounding might be inadequate elsewhere in the house.
 
  #22  
Old 08-06-18, 06:20 PM
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That for example person in bathtub knocks running blow dryer into tub a breaker will pop before it kills you...correct?
Only if it is a GFCI breaker. Regular breakers will not trip until there is a current flow over breaker's rating.
For most receptacles, it will be 15A or 20A you will be dead long before that much current flows through your body. You will be smoking and probably still won't trip the breaker.
This is why GFCI receptacles or breakers are must for wet locations.

If there was insulation failure in your pool cleaner, GFCI would have tripped as soon as you touch the water or even before that. (Current flowing through water to concrete or pipes)

Also, if a blow dryer is dropped in the tub, it may not shock you at all. Blow dryer is not insulated against water and the current will flow through path of lowest resistance. This will be between hot and neutral terminals inside a blow dryer. Of course this case cannot always be guaranteed and if only hot wire got wet or your body has lower resistance for some reason, it will shock you for sure. It just won't be as dramatic as in the movies.
 
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Old 08-07-18, 04:34 AM
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lambition

Thanks!

I wanted to use GFCI sockets in the kitchen as of now there are a couple that have the duplex sockets then next to them a switch,

One switch controls an over head light the other the sink disposal,
I wanted to go with the GFCI receptacle that has one socket one switch,
But seems they only make them 15amp, the circuit is 20amp breaker,
Im told i can do this since this counts has more than one receptacle on the circuit.

However,
At the moment i cant assume the socket and switch is on the same circuit just because they are in the same wall box, i have no idea how this was set up 20 plus years ago and will have to check things and label breakers...fun.

But at least i will know
 
  #24  
Old 08-07-18, 05:00 AM
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One switch controls an over head light the other the sink disposal,
I wanted to go with the GFCI receptacle that has one socket one switch,
You cannot do that in the Kitchen. In the kitchen receptacles should be on their own circuits. Light and disposal may share same circuit, although it is better to separate.
Also, you don't have to replace every single receptacles with GFCI. Receptacles are usually chained and one receptacle feeds the other. You just have to find first one on the chain and replace that with GFCI and the rest of can be connected to the load terminal of the first GFCI.

But seems they only make them 15amp, the circuit is 20amp breaker,
Im told i can do this since this counts has more than one receptacle on the circuit.
They do make 20A and is readily available in box stores. You may also use 15A duplex receptacles (2 receptacles in one) on 20A.
Both 15A and 20A GFCI receptacles has 20A feed through as well.
 
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Old 08-07-18, 09:05 AM
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Hum,

The kitchen has several outlets, a couple share tge wall box with a switch,
i at this point have no clue which is shared i can learn that flipping breakers ,
But thanks on the only one GFCI is needed tip any trick to finding the first receptacle in the chain?

So each circuit needs one GFCI at its start?
 
  #26  
Old 08-07-18, 12:27 PM
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I had recently bought a clamp to connect ground to my copper pipes, but after reading this thread and doing some more thinking, I guess it really is stupid and I will return it to Home Depot.

Two other mysteries now come to mind. First, I see a lot of pictures of water heaters with a bonding wire between the hot and cold pipe just on top. But the last installer did NOT do this with my water heater! And I don't think the installer BEFORE my last replacement did this either.

Why not?

Furthermore, the last plumber in my house used SHARKBITE connectors all over. You can get these anywhere at home improvement stores, they seem to be all the rage now. But SHARKBITE seem to be mostly pure plastic pieces (or a type like that material) from what I see. Doesn't that also stop any conduction between pipes?

How come they never tell you of these dangers at stores when you buy them? Not even on labels?

I just get more confused.
 
  #27  
Old 08-07-18, 05:47 PM
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The kitchen has several outlets, a couple share tge wall box with a switch,
i at this point have no clue which is shared i can learn that flipping breakers ,
2 different circuits can share same box, so the only way to find out what is on which circuit will by flipping breakers.

any trick to finding the first receptacle in the chain?
First, determine which receptacles are on the same circuit.
Pick a receptacle at one end of the chain. Take your best guess. Pull the wall plate and take a peek inside.
If you see only 1 set of wires (1black, 1 white, and ground), that will be end of the run and definitely not the first receptacle. Try the other end.
If you see 2 sets of wires, pull the receptacle with breaker off and disconnect wires from the receptacle.
After making sure wires are not touching anything, turn the breaker back on.
Confirm that you have power at one of the hot wires. You can use a non-contact tester or a multimeter.
Now, check rest of the receptacles on the same circuit has no power. If there is no power, you have found the first receptacle on the chain. If some have power, above steps again on the receptacles that had power.
If you found the first receptacle, make note of which wire had power. That wire and neutral wire coming from the same cable goes to "live" terminal. The other set goes to "load" terminal.


So each circuit needs one GFCI at its start?
Correct. However, if you have an appliance you do not want on GFCI and that is plugged into a receptacle down the chain, you may have to install multiple GFCI receptacles to since you cannot utilize "load" terminal. Refrigerator is the only thing I would not put on GFCI, cause it often causes a false positive trips.
 
  #28  
Old 08-07-18, 05:55 PM
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T see a lot of pictures of water heaters with a bonding wire between the hot and cold pipe just on top. But the last installer did NOT do this with my water heater! And I don't think the installer BEFORE my last replacement did this either.
As far as I know it is not necessary unless you have a non metallic pipe in between or non metallic water heater (there are fiberglass water heaters). Upon some research, I found that it may reduce corrosion from electrolysis. Not sure by how much it will help.


Furthermore, the last plumber in my house used SHARKBITE connectors all over. You can get these anywhere at home improvement stores, they seem to be all the rage now. But SHARKBITE seem to be mostly pure plastic pieces (or a type like that material) from what I see. Doesn't that also stop any conduction between pipes?
Sharkbites are mostly brass and has a rubber o-ring and plastic sleeve releasing stainless steel teeth for removal. It will still allow current to flow through.
If what you have is mostly plastic, you may ave a dresser coupling. I would not use them at all.
 
  #29  
Old 08-07-18, 09:07 PM
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I see a lot of pictures of water heaters with a bonding wire between the hot and cold pipe just on top. But the last installer did NOT do this with my water heater! And I don't think the installer BEFORE my last replacement did this either.
While it should be done all the time these days, it's usually on the electrician when they do a panel/service upgrade to bring all the grounding/bonding up to date. It's rare to see a plumber do anything with a ground wire except MAYBE reconnect it if they are replacing piping.

I believe the NEC requirement for bonding across water heaters occurred sometime in the 80's, many/all houses built before this time didn't bond across the water heater, and unless they've been upgraded, still probably don't.

Grounding/bonding requirements have changed over the years, and in a lot of ways, it's more of an art and evolving science. While it's easy to test in a lab that 12 ga wire is a good size for a 20A circuit, it's much harder to test how a home handles a 100KV lightning strike. So bonding has gotten more specific and more focus over the last 10-20 years as the science/engineering has caught up.
 
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Old 08-07-18, 10:18 PM
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Many thanks guys!

just over 2 years ago i knew very little about plumbing and AC,
Buying a 1909 fixer upper on skinny budget i learned fast,
Not wanting to sound pompous im very mechanically inclined.

I paid to have a water heater installed about a week after we moved in hindsite and its sad i know more now than that installer did,
I do not believe he was certified in anything he just wholesaled water heaters so had to install them,
He didnt bond hot to cold but i did a few days ago when i made all this stuff right.

He was savvy with the shark bit fittings, a metal water cut off was dripping i had him replace it, he used cpvc and shark bite for 2 connections,
Close to 3 years later no issues,

When i picked up where they left off 20 years ago i used shark bites, i like them so far,
The pipe has to be cut straight no dents and SB makes a tool to clean the end and mark correct depth,
I used them in open locations. Toilet, sink and tub cut offs.

Sorry, now back to grounds,
I will do as you said tracking down the start of the kitchen receptacles,

This whole electrical project started because tina said a plastic switch in the kitchen gave her a zap tingle if fingers dap or wet...
 
  #31  
Old 08-08-18, 02:13 AM
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Well, I guess I'll feel more confident now about the shark-bite units. I wonder if I can just take a multi-meter to the hot & cold pipes, which should tell me if they are bonded or not? Simple test.

Maybe it wouldn't be an absolute test, but would see if there is any potential difference?

When I return the water-pipe clamp to Home Depot, I will see about picking up some green ground wire instead, and just run it from an ungrounded receptacle to a grounded one.
 
  #32  
Old 08-08-18, 04:07 AM
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Sharkbites.are.not approved.connectors to continue grounding or.bonding.
 
  #33  
Old 08-08-18, 10:58 AM
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No, sharkbites arent bonding, but unless its sweated copper i wouldnt trust it,
In my car restorations if a fitting has to also be a ground like a fan sender we do not use tape on it,

In my case there was both cpvc and a shark bite from copper to water heater, no question it severed the ground,

I used 2 pipe clamps and a piece of 4awg copper to bond my hot and cold copper pipes.


Running a ground from an ungrounded receptacle to one with a ground i guess works i dont know your codes,
In my case i would not trust just because a receptacle has a ground wire means it goes anywhere, up until a few days ago all my kitchen receptacles have a ground but at the sub panel the ground buss didnt go anywhere,
Now its bonded with g/n in main panel.

So be sure that ground you tie into actually goes somewhere....
 
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Old 08-08-18, 11:00 AM
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@pcboss, Interesting about the continuity in SharkBite connectors.

I found some documentation on their UK site that specifies that they are electrically continuous. But the same docs don't seem to exist for their US fittings. They appear to be the same construction, though metric sizes. But it is interesting that they don't seem to say anything about jumping across their fittings.

http://www.sharkbiteplumbing.co.uk/s...chr_201411.pdf
See page 31

(sorry for getting a bit off topic)
 
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Old 08-08-18, 02:14 PM
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I like this kind of off topic, my thread so go wild, lol,

To my understanding which i didnt elaborate on is not if they bond or not but rather they as far as when i read about it are not approved in usa as bonding,

I read a lot about them before using them as i didnt see how they could work,
But they do, the only fails seems to be user faults.
 
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Old 08-09-18, 11:00 AM
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How come they never tell you of these dangers at stores when you buy them?
In the box stores you generally only deal with someone who knows how to sell stuff. Rarely will you find anyone who knows anything about electrical and plumbing codes or who can answer questions about a particular product, installation or problem you may have.
 
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Old 08-09-18, 08:57 PM
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Joe,
That is sadly so true, i hit a lowes a lot because they are close,
The clerks many times doesnt even know where something is,
But i have learned a lot from other customers who are in the field and stopped in to grab a part they needed on a job,

My feeling on DYI is a person has to do there homework and if a person feels at all uneasy about tackling something, dont, your life is worth more, call a professinal.
 
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Old 08-11-18, 10:46 AM
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Joe,
That is sadly so true, i hit a lowes a lot because they are close,
The clerks many times doesn't even know where something is,

Yes, it is indeed sad, but until the box stores are willing to pay for expertise, they will not have expertise to offer in their customer service. The rare exception is when you find someone retired from the field working part time. You should hear some of the stories I have heard from a friend who works part time. What's even more sad is that many customers believe when they enter a box store they are asking advice of a real pro.
 
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