wiring branch circuit for pool


  #1  
Old 05-21-01, 06:32 AM
D
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I have run conduit underground about 110 feet for a swimming pool (presently equipment will be outside, but later in the summer, it will be enclosed in a shed). I was thinking of placing a 50 amp double pole breaker inside my main electric panel and then in the pool shed, having another 50 amp double pole breaker as the main breaker (both nonGFCI). Then, below that, i would place a 20 amp double pole gfci for the pump as well as single pole gfci's for lights,outlets etc. Is this the correct way to do it? I will be using #6 Ga THHN wire. As far as the box, I have seen 125 amp service boxes that are watertight. Can I then place a 50 amp double pole breaker as the main breaker in that box? Thanks.
 
  #2  
Old 05-21-01, 05:58 PM
Wgoodrich
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YOU SAID;
I have run conduit underground about 110 feet for a swimming pool (presently equipment will be outside, but later in the summer, it will be enclosed in a shed). I was thinking of placing a 50 amp double pole breaker inside my main electric panel and then in the pool shed, having another 50 amp double pole breaker as the main breaker

REPLY;
What you are discribing is fine although a couple of points need to be shown on you design considerations.

Any sub panel serving a pool must have four insulated conductors [Two hot insulated wires, an insulated neutral conductor that is either white or gray identified, and a green insulated grounding conductor. This is a must to serve any sub panel serving a pool pump. This sub panel is not required to be GFCI protected. Your THHN is not rated for a wet location and any wire in a conduit that is buried must be approved for a wet location. However most likely you THHN is a dual rated wire. Look for the letters THWN on that same conductor. If THWN is on that conductor then the W says that conductor is approved for a wet location.


YOU SAID;
Then, below that, i would place a 20 amp double pole gfci for the pump as well as single pole gfci's for lights,outlets etc.

REPLY;
No light fixture is required to be GFI protected unless within 5' of that pool.

The pool pump whether 220 volt or 120 volt is not required to be GFI protected is hard wired without a receptacle. If a receptacle is installed then 15 or 20 amp 120 volt pool pump motors with a receptacle installed must be GFI protected. If with a receptacle a 220 volt pool pump motor is required to also be GFI protected.

The pool pump receptacle must not be within 5' of the pool. The pool pump receptacle may be between 5' and 10' of the pool but this receptacle must be a twist lock style receptacle.
The pool pump receptalce located more than 10' of the pool may be a normal GFI protected receptacle.

No receptacle other than the twist lock pool pump receptacle
may be installed within 10' of that pool.

Any receptacle that is intended to be left plugged in without being attended by personel must have a weather shield installed so that that plugged in plug and receptacle is weather proof while being plugged in.

Any underwater pool light or pool pump must be on a dedicated circuit and must be 12 ga. with an insulated 12 ga. green wire in that circuit serving that pool pump or underwater light fixture.

Any pool pump or underwater light fixture must be run in a conduit. That conduit must be fed by the main panel or an approved pool sub panel with an insulated grounding conductor in the feeder.

No other conductors are allowed in the conduit with a GFI protected branch circuit unless those other circuit conductors are also protected by another GFI control.

YOU SAID;
Is this the correct way to do it? I will be using #6 Ga THHN wire. As far as the box, I have seen 125 amp service boxes that are watertight. Can I then place a 50 amp double pole breaker as the main breaker in that box? Thanks.

REPLY;
Many more rules apply. You might want to refer to another thread entered in this DIY last week for more information.

Any non main lug only panel is allowed to be larger than a main. However with the requirement of installing a fourth wire to this subpanel in the pool shed would make that panel a sub panel of the main dwelling. If you use a main lug only panel and install a 50 amp breaker in a 125 amp main lug only panel and used as a main breaker it would be fine as long as that main can be secured to the box as required for use as a main. You could actually use a main service rated panel with a 125 amp main breaker coming with the panel and still protect that sub panel in the main dwelling panel with a 50 amp breaker and still use the 50 amp rated wires as feeders for that sub panel. Even though that sub panel would have a 125 amp main in it that panel would still be rated 50 amp because of the feeder breaker located in the main dwelling.

Considering the requirement of the fourth insulated grounding wire being required serving that pool sub panel remember you must separate the neutral bar from the panel box and bond the grounding bar to the box keeping the neutrals and grounding conductors separated.

Hope this helps

WG
 
  #3  
Old 05-21-01, 06:30 PM
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WG,
I'm confused by the terminology when you say "main lug only panel". What I have is a GE panel which has eight slots arranged in two rows of 4. There is no typical main breaker at the top of the box. I will be taking up 2 of those slots with a 50 amp breaker (double pole). There is then a clip which secures it in place since it is now acting as the main breaker and cannot be removed. Therefore, wouldn't I take the two hot feeds from the house (red and black) and secure them to the breaker (instead of the lugs in the box) so that I am feeding the main buss through the breaker? Thanks again for all your help. Dave
 
  #4  
Old 05-22-01, 12:41 PM
Wgoodrich
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If this pool sub panel in that pool shed is not existing then you must run 4 insulated conductors and wire this pool sub panel as a sub panel. Therefore a new ground rod must not be installed. A main may be installed within this panel but is not required because it is a sub panel as required for new installations as per Art. 680-25.

Main lug only panel is what you discibed having the lugs instead of a main breaker to connect the feeders serving that sub panel. No main is required but may be added. Yes if you install the main breaker at your option in that pool sub panel then you would connect your red and black to your main breaker connections.

If this sub panel is an existing panel in a detached building that was previously installed and now considered as existing some exceptions would apply. Just let us know if this is an existing sub panel or new pool sub panel being installed for the pool.

Hope this helps

Wg
 
  #5  
Old 05-22-01, 03:43 PM
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Wg,
This subpanel is indeed a new one so I am running the 4 conductors (with insulated equipment ground). The pool lights and pump also will be run in conduit for their entire length. I assume that the pool pump needs an insulated equipment ground in its conduit. The reason why I placed a main breaker is because if I ever want to do work on the panel, I will be able to shut off the power without trudging back to the house 110 feet.
Thanks again for all your input.
Dave
 
  #6  
Old 05-22-01, 03:50 PM
RickM
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Cool

Good job, Warren. However, I would like to add one thing. Talk with the local inspector. He may want (as I would) a grounding electrode at the sub-panel(future shed). While I respect your opinion on this subject, the local authority may not see it your way, but then again, he may. The only way is to ask.

Rick Miell
 
  #7  
Old 05-22-01, 05:24 PM
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hmmmmm,
so.....a new pool owner who wants to feed off an existing outbuilding 3 wire subpanel cannot per 680 ,nor a 4-wire with bare ground.?

again, the theory is isolation of pool grounding from dwelling grounding?
 
  #8  
Old 05-22-01, 08:06 PM
Wgoodrich
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Rick you are most right the Inspector is the final authority on interpretation. This is true unless he is far enough away from minimum safety standards of the NEC to warrant being challenged by proper methods such as appeals boards or courts. I suspect we have all seen an inspector or two that doesn't have a clue but doesn't know it. Wish they all were as qualified as you and many more I know of, we wouldn't have near the concern we have now. Knowledge does seem to be getting much better, especially if compared to the 60s, 70s, 80s and even some 90s time frame.

Wirenuts;

You said;

again, the theory is isolation of pool grounding from dwelling grounding?

Reply;

Proper terms must be used to limit confusion. Pool bonding grid system from structures equipment grounding system. Quite a difference, if said wrong may cause confusion.

Wg
 
  #9  
Old 05-23-01, 04:30 AM
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i'll get it right sooner or later.......
 
 

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