Turn off 2 breakers (one is Arc Fault) to turn off one circuit?
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 8
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
Turn off 2 breakers (one is Arc Fault) to turn off one circuit?
I was going to do some work on an outlet and went to my panel box, turned off the breaker and was very surprised to see the circuit was still live. It wasn't until I ALSO flipped off an Arc Fault Breaker a few spots above it that the circuit was off. See attached photo for the breakers. If I reverse and turn off the Arc Fault and turn on the normal 15a breaker, the circuit is live again. They both have to be off for the circuit to be off.
Two questions:
1. Is this proper & up to code? I've never seen it where one has to turn off 2 separate breakers to turn off one circuit. (note: I have not removed the panel box cover to see how it is wired).
2. Should I leave the normal 15a breaker always off so if an Arc fault is detected it would trip that breaker and turn off the circuit? Seems like if I leave them both on and the Arc Fault trips but the circuit stays on, it defeats the purpose of the Arc Fault breaker.
PS. As a result of this I'm checking all the circuits and going to relabel this panel as the descriptions aren't accurate.
Thanks in advance!
Two questions:
1. Is this proper & up to code? I've never seen it where one has to turn off 2 separate breakers to turn off one circuit. (note: I have not removed the panel box cover to see how it is wired).
2. Should I leave the normal 15a breaker always off so if an Arc fault is detected it would trip that breaker and turn off the circuit? Seems like if I leave them both on and the Arc Fault trips but the circuit stays on, it defeats the purpose of the Arc Fault breaker.
PS. As a result of this I'm checking all the circuits and going to relabel this panel as the descriptions aren't accurate.
Thanks in advance!
#2
Member
It is not proper to need tow breakers off to de-energize a circuit.
Do items function if you leave one breaker off? Depending on the testing method it be a false reading. If they do then leave one off until the issue can be resolved. Somewhere the two hot have cross connected.
Do items function if you leave one breaker off? Depending on the testing method it be a false reading. If they do then leave one off until the issue can be resolved. Somewhere the two hot have cross connected.
#3
Hi, are the conductors to those breakers in the same cable? Should be a Red and Black, if so you have a multiwire branch circuit, it must be repaired.
Geo
Geo
#4
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 8
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
I just took off the panel cover. The hot from the arc fault breaker is going out one knock out on the side of the panel box and the hot from the normal 15amp break is going out a top knock out. They are not nutted together anywhere in the panel box. I'm going to leave the 15amp break off.
#5
Ok..... so you have two circuits on the same leg leaving the panel and are somewhere connecting together. That needs to be found. Make up a list of everything on those two circuits. From the list we or you may be able to figure out a connection point.
It's pretty strange to have an AFCI and a non AFCI circuit in the same box.
Technically..... that was not originally wired correctly .
As I look at the breakers..... I see family room lights on both breakers. The bedroom on the AFCI is correct. The family room lights should not be on the AFCI. Your family room recps wouldn't be on an AFCI either.
Where is the TV....... family room or bedroom ?
It's pretty strange to have an AFCI and a non AFCI circuit in the same box.
Technically..... that was not originally wired correctly .
As I look at the breakers..... I see family room lights on both breakers. The bedroom on the AFCI is correct. The family room lights should not be on the AFCI. Your family room recps wouldn't be on an AFCI either.
Where is the TV....... family room or bedroom ?
#6
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 8
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
Thanks to all who have helped so far.
This is what is on that circuit:
Lights: Family Room & Bedroom
Outlets: 2 in Family Room, 1 TV over Fireplace in Family room , 3 in the Bedroom, 1 exterior on the Balcony (GFCI)
While I get this figured out and traced, you'd agree I should keep the regular 15amp circuit off, right?
This is what is on that circuit:
Lights: Family Room & Bedroom
Outlets: 2 in Family Room, 1 TV over Fireplace in Family room , 3 in the Bedroom, 1 exterior on the Balcony (GFCI)
While I get this figured out and traced, you'd agree I should keep the regular 15amp circuit off, right?
#8
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 8
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
So I'm 99% confident it's been wired like this since I moved in b/c I hand wrote on those labels the additional items that were on the circuit shortly after I moved in. Since then, I've slowly added smart switches to those rooms (bedroom & family room). I would not have put hots together, but may have combined the neutrals as most smart switch require a hot and neutral. Could that be part of the issue? Again, I don't think so as I identified this issue while I was installing the bedroom smart switch but wanted to put it out there. Not sure if tying neutrals together could cause this issue.
#9
No.... you have hots tied together. I think if you had tied a non AFCI and a standard neutral together you would have the AFCI breaker tripping.
#11
Turn off the regular 15 amp breaker. Unhook the black wire from its terminal and tape the wire end.
It is hard to say which outlet box is the offending one with the two circuits cross connected. You don't know which box was wired up or modified last in which case that box is the offending box.
With one breaker disconnected, it is now all one branch circuit although you can decide if and when to split it into two circuits.
It may require some trial and error to split it into two approximately equal circuits. A tone generating circuit tracer may come in handy.
Suggest starting the analysis at larger boxes e.g. 2 or 3 gang. You would have to unhook something and see what parts went dead. Then turn off the AFCI breaker and reconnect the wire unhooked long ago back to the other breaker. Flip that other breaker on and see whether exactly everything that went dead becomes live. (Excluding the parts last left live when the AFCI breaker was still on.)
It is legitimate for live (feed) cables from two branch circuits to enter the same box. But neither hot nor neutral of the respective circuits may be commingled and items served by one circuit's hot must be served by the same circuit's neutral.
A long time ago there were so called "ring" circuits where the wiring came out of the panel, went out and around the house, and came back to the panel. That is no longer permitted. Today there must be exactly one path from any outlet (light, receptacle, etc. connection point) back to the panel with hot and neutral accompanying each other along that path.
Imagine a capital letter Q. Back in the day ring circuits were in vogue, there is (should be) a single connection to the fuse (breakers were rare then) corresponding to the tail of the Q. Not suggesting a letter U with the two top ends connected to their own fuses. I still do not understand the advantage of ring circuits. Or imagine a question mark shape with the bottom connected to power. At the last minute someone sees the "left" end coming back from upstairs connected to nothing and he hooks up another breaker to that "loose" end (giving the result of the capital U).
Or you can imagine the wiring suggesting the capital X. Both top ends are connected to their own respective breakers say with the left side and right side supposed to be separate as in one cursive writing form of capital X with the two pen strokes not quite touching. An unwanted cross connection is in the middle but in the real circuit you don't know exactly where yet.
It is hard to say which outlet box is the offending one with the two circuits cross connected. You don't know which box was wired up or modified last in which case that box is the offending box.
With one breaker disconnected, it is now all one branch circuit although you can decide if and when to split it into two circuits.
It may require some trial and error to split it into two approximately equal circuits. A tone generating circuit tracer may come in handy.
Suggest starting the analysis at larger boxes e.g. 2 or 3 gang. You would have to unhook something and see what parts went dead. Then turn off the AFCI breaker and reconnect the wire unhooked long ago back to the other breaker. Flip that other breaker on and see whether exactly everything that went dead becomes live. (Excluding the parts last left live when the AFCI breaker was still on.)
It is legitimate for live (feed) cables from two branch circuits to enter the same box. But neither hot nor neutral of the respective circuits may be commingled and items served by one circuit's hot must be served by the same circuit's neutral.
A long time ago there were so called "ring" circuits where the wiring came out of the panel, went out and around the house, and came back to the panel. That is no longer permitted. Today there must be exactly one path from any outlet (light, receptacle, etc. connection point) back to the panel with hot and neutral accompanying each other along that path.
Imagine a capital letter Q. Back in the day ring circuits were in vogue, there is (should be) a single connection to the fuse (breakers were rare then) corresponding to the tail of the Q. Not suggesting a letter U with the two top ends connected to their own fuses. I still do not understand the advantage of ring circuits. Or imagine a question mark shape with the bottom connected to power. At the last minute someone sees the "left" end coming back from upstairs connected to nothing and he hooks up another breaker to that "loose" end (giving the result of the capital U).
Or you can imagine the wiring suggesting the capital X. Both top ends are connected to their own respective breakers say with the left side and right side supposed to be separate as in one cursive writing form of capital X with the two pen strokes not quite touching. An unwanted cross connection is in the middle but in the real circuit you don't know exactly where yet.
Last edited by AllanJ; 01-19-19 at 06:46 AM.
#12
It is legitimate for live (feed) cables from two branch circuits to enter the same box. But neither hot nor neutral of the respective circuits may be commingled and items served by one circuit's hot must be served by the same circuit's neutral.
Based on what's been discovered..... it would appear that the problem is at one of the multi-gang boxes controlling lights.... and more precisely.... the living room lights since that seems like a common denominator.