I don't have any more questions about those wires. I think I've got a good idea on how to proceed with that job. Thank you.

My only other question is, how difficult is it to replace the old box, with a new breaker panel?

 

Replacing the panel with a new panel requires running new wires from the meter to the new panel and almost certainly replacing the wires from the meter to the electric company drop. Power must be off for that and for an electrician might be able to do in a day. However for someone who has never done it at least a couple of days. The thing is the second apartment complicates it. For instance is it on its own meter. It is just not a beginners job. And we have yet to even discuss permits required and if you are even allowed to pull them. Where I am no homeowners permits allowed for this type of job and only master electricians can pull them.

 

I see. Thank you. So, is that why your thought of "mounting a 2nd 100a panel and running it off the stove fuse block, and moving everything to it" would be an easier job?

 

I was thinking about probing those wires for voltage some more last night, and have a few questions that I hope don't seem too ridiculous...

Since that white NM cable has both the white wire, and black wire, coming off the stove fuse block terminals, and are thus both hot, where is the neutral wire in that circuit? That bare copper wire from the white NM cable is still a ground wire, right? (Same question for the two black wires I want to move?).

I was thinking about this, because I was thinking to use my meter on the wires both before, and after, I pull the stove fuse block, just so I'm absolutely sure there is no power on the wires I want to move .... That's why I started wondering - if I put 1 meter lead on the hot wire from the stove fuse block, and the other meter lead on that neutral bundle of 'silver wires' (aluminum, I assume) the meter would measure the 120 volts, but I am not actually using a neutral that is part of the white NM cable circuit, or the two black wires I want to move - or am I?

Is the bare copper wire somehow 'acting' like a neutral, as well as a ground? Or is the neutral somewhere else in the circuit? (Then, if that bare copper wire is acting like a neutral, carrying 120v back to the source, can it electrify the metal fuse box itself)?

 

A 240 volt circuit does not have a neutral.

 

Wow. That surprises me! A lot!

So, if I put one multi-meter lead on one of the wires coming out of the stove fuse block, and the other meter lead on those neutral wires, will the meter read 120v? What about on the bare copper ground wire?

 

From either one of the hot wires coming out of the stove block you should read 120 volts to both neutral and ground.

 

Two hots are 240 volts. One hot and neutral is 120v. One hot and ground is 120 volts. Ground to neutral is ~ 0v.Not at the first fuse/breaker panel because ground and neutral are connected together but yes on any grounded appliance such as a refrigerator. That is why ground is never used as a neutral.

 

So if I put one meter lead on one of the 1st range connector screw, and the other lead on the 2nd range connector screw, and it would read 240v? (ie: I would not burn my meter assuming I have the meter dialed to the higher ACV setting of 750v?)

So, the copper bar underneath the four edison fuses, has the copper ground wire, and some white neutral wires, attached to it? Is that how the ground and neutral are connected in the fuse box?

I want to make sure I don't blow any fuses in the fuse box as I am testing for voltage with my meter. What do I want to make sure I do NOT touch with my 2 meter leads?

 

Set at the correct range you can safely measure 240 volts. Yes, you must not touch the metal of the probes.Yes. However in a modern breaker panel used as a subpanel the neutral will be isolated by insulators and not connected to the ground bar, Note though in a subpanel the ground bar is connected to the metal panel case.

 

Yes, the outside meter. The utility furnishes the meter, but the meter socket the meter is installed in generally is the owner's responsibility. Pictures would be helpful. Assuming you have service cable from the meter socket to the utility connections above I am sure that the original service cable is well beyond it's useful life and needs to be replaced. The same for the cable coming from the bottom of the meter socket that feeds the fuse box inside. I think a prudent first step would be to contact your local building office and see if they even allow an owner to replace a service, many municipalities do not. A good second step might be to get a couple estimates from local licensed electrical contractors.

 

I finally got round to checking the voltage reading on the fuse box wires. I got a unexpected reading on one of the lines of around only 13 volts on the terminal that is above the RANGE pullout box, and is the terminal on the right side. The left side measured the correct 120 volts.

I was going to pull the range pullout and look at the cartridge fuse inside, as I was thinking maybe it is gone bad, but I decided to ask here first before doing that.

Why would that one terminal be only 13 volts?

BTW, I have not noticed any lights, or outlets in the house that are not working. The wires for the kitchen stove outlet have no power, as they were cut at some point, which you can see in the picture if you look just above the RANGE pullout.

I also noticed that the RANGE PULLOUT looks to be upside down. (The word RANGE is on the bottom of the fuse block).

 

Most likely a bad fuse. Pull it and see.

 

Putting the pullout in upside down is usually putting it in the OFF position.

 

Really! What physically makes that be 'off'?

And why would I have one side with 120v and one with 13v?

 

Prongs on the modern fuse holder (pull out) is designed so that it makes contacts only when it is right side up.
However, searching for a picture of your fuse doesn't look like it is the case here.

The side with 13V probably has blow fuse. Full the fuse and check.

 

Is their a possiblity I could ruin the cartridge fuses when I remove the 'pullout'? Are they still being sold?

 

Pulling the fuse holder won't ruin them. That is the normal way to service them. Cartridge fuses are readily available. (They are often used in disconnects.) Be sure you get "slow blow" fuses.

 

I pulled the block fuses out.

The MAIN block has two 60 amp cartridge fuses in it.

The RANGE bock has a 45 amp cartridge on the left side, and a 15 amp cartridge on right side.


https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1Q...PM2jMTdgQWTdyG

I've pulled the old STOVE wires, that were cut, out of the fuse box.

I don't know what the wires on the range side are powering, if anything? With the RANGE pullout removed, I tested all the lights and outlets, and none were de-powered.

I tried tracing the white NM wire, from above the RANGE pullout, and it runs to the front of the house, but I can't see where it goes after it goes up through the basement ceiling. Same with the two black wires coming from above the RANGE pullout,

I found a panel that almost is the right one for the fuse box. The only problem with fitting it is that the bottom cutout is for a four fuse setup, while mine is a two fuse setup. SO, I was thinking about raising the two fuses up an inch, or so, and screwing the fuse base in at the higher location, and then blocking off the two lower fuse cutouts. Maybe get some aluminum sheet and cut it out? Or just lay a straight pieces across the cutout opening. Any suggestions?

 

Ray, you said earlier that a 240v circuit does not have a neutral. I'm still wondering about that? I always thought that any circuit required a neutral to complete a circuit, and that electricity had to come in on the hot wire and return on the neutral? How can this 240v work differently than that? Also, I guess that whatever the two black wires coming off the RANGE block was a 240v circuit, maybe a replacement for an electric stove at one point?

What would have been the purpose of someone placing the 45 and 15 amp cartridge fuses in the RANGE block? (Instead of two 60 amp cartridges)?

How do I test the 15 amp cartridge? (It was only reading 15 volts on it's side of the RANGE last time I put a meter on it)

 

Power travels from one 240v leg to the other. Neutral is a centertap on the secondary of the supply transformer.

There should never be two different size fuses but probably someone was using one side 120v only.

Use your multimeter to check a fuse. Remove the fuse. A good fuse shows continuity between the ends.