Is This Legal

Reply

  #1  
Old 04-15-19, 04:28 PM
D
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,075
Received 45 Votes on 38 Posts
Is This Legal

I had a guy from an electrical contractor out today to give me a quote on a couple of things.
1) replace my breaker panel
2) install a new breaker box (like the one in the picture below)

Lets talk about the single breaker box that will be outside by the meter base. He told me that I would have to come out of the breaker box inside the home & run a line to the outside single (sub panel?) outside. He says I can NOT come out of the meter base with more than one line which goes to the breaker panel inside the home. In short, I can not come out of the meter base & run a line to the breaker box & another to the single breaker box outside (sub panel?).
I did this before on our old home in 2001.
Below is the exact setup that I am wanting to do. As you can see, that is exactly how I did the other. Entergy came out & pulled the meter and let me hook up the single breaker box into the meter base... while the meter base is also feeding the breaker panel inside the home.
The electrician says I can not do it this way. I say, I can cause Entergy pulled the meter base, let me hook it up & put the meter back after I was done. He was there the entire time. Maybe 30 minutes.

I had much better pics of this but they were too large. If I can find another, I'll post it.
Name:  New Pics 039.jpg
Views: 450
Size:  134.7 KB
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 04-15-19, 04:36 PM
S
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 2,104
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Why is he prying on the fascia board ??
 

Last edited by skaggsje; 04-15-19 at 04:39 PM. Reason: correction
  #3  
Old 04-15-19, 04:50 PM
D
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,075
Received 45 Votes on 38 Posts
Thats me several years ago, replacing some bad boards.
 
  #4  
Old 04-15-19, 04:55 PM
A
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,610
Received 44 Votes on 39 Posts
Codes and POCO's allowable practices change over time. Issue now is that each panel is a service disconnect and they need to be at one location.
 
  #5  
Old 04-15-19, 06:17 PM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 13,633
Received 209 Votes on 185 Posts
I would agree with Astuff. The disconnecting means are required to be grouped together. Also, in the meter I would hope that you have double lugs for the wires and not two wires under a single lug,

Power company workers are not familiar with the NEC electrical codes are their installations are not covered by the NEC. I am also surprised that they reconnected the new installation without you getting an inspection.
 
  #6  
Old 04-15-19, 06:30 PM
D
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,075
Received 45 Votes on 38 Posts
The disconnecting means are required to be grouped together.
I dont understand this but by the way both of your posts are written, I am assuming, what I am asking to be done, is not legal, correct? Or should I say not to code & not allowed by the NEC.
 
  #7  
Old 04-15-19, 06:55 PM
Z
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 5,331
Received 114 Votes on 105 Posts
Adding another voice into the mix - I too agree that having 2 panels, separately connected to the meter, in two different locations is not code-compliant. To think about it logically, NEC requires you to be able to shut off all the power to the building from one location. In your situation, you'd need to go to two locations to do it.

You'd need a 2-breaker panel at the meter location, one breaker feeding your subpanel in the house and the second going wherever it goes.

Depending on the size of the panels and the feeders, you could potentially have a single disconnect feeding both panels, but I don't think you'd gain anything with this solution.
 
  #8  
Old 04-15-19, 06:56 PM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 13,633
Received 209 Votes on 185 Posts
Correct. It is not legal nor is it code compliant. A relatively easy fix would be to install a main panel outside next to the meter and feed the inside panel off the outside panel.

What is it you are trying to do?
 
  #9  
Old 04-15-19, 07:15 PM
D
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,075
Received 45 Votes on 38 Posts
Thank you Zorfdt. That made sense. Tolyn, thanks for your explanation too.

To answer both of you guys question, I need a new panel inside to supply the house because the existing one is old & is a two wire system... a black wire & a white... no ground. Its grounded at the meter. Therefore no outlets or switches in the house are grounded as such. Yes, in a sense they are but, there is no ground wire in the house. So you understand that. I just want it up graded because its old & outdated. The breaker panel only has 12 spaces. Two of those is a double for the AC/Heat unit. One is for the pump & shop. Yep... one for both. That leaves too few breakers for the whole house. A 1450 sq ft, three bedroom 1 & 1/2 bath. So, I need more spaces & an upgraded, new panel.
The sub panel that I want outside is so I can run electricity to the shop where I will put a breaker panel, for lights, outlets, 120v wire welder, air compressor, stand up drill press, table saw, a 220 for a stick welder, etc, etc. I just wanted a sub panel connected to the meter base, then out of the sub panel, run plastic pipe under ground to the shop & connect to a new breaker panel there. All with new 12/2 romex (black, white & ground). As it is now (when we bought the house) they only have one run of romex (2 wire - black & white, no ground), over head, through a tree, to the shop. I just want something safer than that.

So, the breaker panel in the house will be for the house electrical system.
The sub panel outdoor will be for the shop & probably the water pump/well system.
 
  #10  
Old 04-15-19, 07:22 PM
D
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,075
Received 45 Votes on 38 Posts
Tolyn, actually, the contractor today wanted to put a new breaker panel in the house, put in a breaker extra, then run a line from that breaker, through the wall to the sub panel outside, then run the feed to the shop. Just the opposite (but same thing) as you suggested.
 
  #11  
Old 04-16-19, 04:42 AM
Geochurchi's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 4,801
Received 73 Votes on 69 Posts
Hi, what is the purpose of the subpanel outside? Why not install a new panel inside and feed the shop directly from that panel.
Changing the panel will do nothing as far as grounding the rest of the house if itís all wired with 2 wire cable.
Geo
 
  #12  
Old 04-16-19, 04:51 AM
D
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,075
Received 45 Votes on 38 Posts
Geo, I think posts 9 & 10 answers your questions. I think.
 
  #13  
Old 04-16-19, 05:02 AM
Geochurchi's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 4,801
Received 73 Votes on 69 Posts
I just donít see the need for the sub panel outside, everything could be fed from the one panel in the house.
Maybe itís me.
Geo
 
  #14  
Old 04-16-19, 05:09 AM
D
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,075
Received 45 Votes on 38 Posts
Geo, also without getting into another phase of this project, in this thread, I am going to have the whole house rewired, one room at a time with new wiring... 12/2 (black, white & ground). So, the shop will be on the 12/2 wiring early on.
 
  #15  
Old 04-16-19, 05:13 AM
D
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,075
Received 45 Votes on 38 Posts
Thanks Geo, & its possible that I am over thinking this & is why I am asking for advice. I need at least a 60 amp breaker for the shop minimum. My stick welder pulls 50 amps alone. If I am using the welder, plus lights & whatever else I maybe using at the same time, I need enough to feed the service. I'd like to have a 100 amp breaker just for the shop alone. Id rather have too much & be sure, rather than having too little.
 
  #16  
Old 04-16-19, 05:14 AM
I
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 10,944
Received 43 Votes on 41 Posts
This might be a good situation for a meter/main combo (CSED) panel. It replaces your meter box with a unit that has a meter socket and a few main breakers integrated into one unit. This allows you to feed several different panels or outbuildings from the meter location without having to run large feeders in and out of the house panel.
 
  #17  
Old 04-18-19, 05:20 PM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 10,656
Received 86 Votes on 76 Posts
I need at least a 60 amp breaker for the shop minimum. My stick welder pulls 50 amps alone.

Remember that the welder probably only draws 50 amps at it's highest setting and most people I know with welders at home rarely, if ever, have used their highest setting.
 
  #18  
Old 04-18-19, 06:13 PM
D
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,075
Received 45 Votes on 38 Posts
Thank you Joe..................
 
  #19  
Old 04-22-19, 02:31 PM
D
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,075
Received 45 Votes on 38 Posts
OK, back to this thread.

I have decided to add a breaker in the new breaker panel inside the house, then come out of the new breaker panel with 12/2 romex, through the exterior wall (brick outside) with this:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-in-Typ...3665/202043405
mounted on then outside wall rather than a sub panel outside, run plastic pipe out of the bottom of the conduit body, down the wall, then underground to the shop (then install a breaker panel out in the shop etc).

My question:
Do I just have the electrician drill a hole through the brick wall, stick this conduit body inlet in the brick & attach fasteners? I mean, do I want to have him drill a 1" hole in my brick wall to mount this? Is that what you would do? Or would you use another type of box to come out of the wall with the Romex..... properly..??
 
  #20  
Old 04-22-19, 02:44 PM
J
Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: welland ontario
Posts: 7,561
Received 249 Votes on 219 Posts
You can't run normal NM cable outside, even in conduit. It is not rated for wet location and all conduit outside is considered a wet location.
 
  #21  
Old 04-22-19, 02:48 PM
Geochurchi's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 4,801
Received 73 Votes on 69 Posts
Hi, have him drill the hole but you wonít be able to run NM-B in the pipe it must be THWN conductors, so the pipe must be a complete run from panel to panel.
You could install a weather proof box instead of the LB and change the NM-B to THWN.
Geo
 
  #22  
Old 04-22-19, 02:55 PM
D
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,075
Received 45 Votes on 38 Posts
So I cant run this out doors in 1" plastic electrical pipe, buried under ground?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwir...8255/100048873
 
  #23  
Old 04-22-19, 02:56 PM
Geochurchi's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 4,801
Received 73 Votes on 69 Posts
No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
  #24  
Old 04-22-19, 03:02 PM
D
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,075
Received 45 Votes on 38 Posts
And the plastic pipe has to be one continuous run. I cant run like 20' joints of pipe connected & glued?
with that kinda romex......... Oppps........... LOL......

Ok great thanks for the advice Geo. I appreciate it.
 
  #25  
Old 04-22-19, 04:06 PM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 13,633
Received 209 Votes on 185 Posts
IF you want to run NM cable outside you need to use UF.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwir...5955/202316281
 
  #26  
Old 04-22-19, 05:04 PM
D
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,075
Received 45 Votes on 38 Posts
Thanks Tolyn. I'll get that for the outside & use the other for re-wiring the inside of the shop. Thanks a bunch. I appreciate it.
 
  #27  
Old 04-24-19, 06:12 AM
E
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 52
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
First there are a few problems:
  • You cannot run jacketed cables like Romex in conduit.
  • You can also not run Romex in exterior or wet locations (and conduits are assumed to be wet because they are nearly 100% of the time damp or wet due to condensation and moisture infiltration.)

But, do I understand correctly what you are trying to do now?
  1. You want to bring a S.E. cable from your outdoor meter to an indoor load center ("main panel").
  2. Then bring a cable from the indoor load center, back outdoors and to a exterior mounted load center ("sub panel").

Do I understand that correct? If so, this plan is a bit backwards, don't you think?

I highly recommend you search for "200 Amp Meter Main Combo". With this product, your meter and main panel are combined into one cabinet. It mounts on the exterior of your house. (Yes that means your "main panel" is outdoors.)

Then you bring a S.E. cable into your house and put your loadcenter indoors (which is techically a "sub panel" now). The only difference between a main and a sub is that your neutrals and grounds are not bonded together in the sub.



My main panel looks like this. It is outdoors. It only has space for one 200 amp breaker. That breaker can shut off power to my 200 amp indoor loadcenter. This way, I can work on my indoor loadcenter without risk of touching a hot lug or busbar and dying. It cost me 1000 bucks including materials and installation by a licensed electrician + passed town inspection.

However, if you have need for additional outdoor circuits, you can find plenty of "Meter Main Combo" units that have space for 8 or 16 breakers.

I am glad you are not trying to have your meter directly connected to both panels anymore. That was a worse idea. There is supposed to be 1 main panel. That is the one and only service entrance; that is the only place where neutral-ground bonding must occur; that is the place where the primary service disconnect must be.
 
  #28  
Old 04-29-19, 11:17 AM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 10,656
Received 86 Votes on 76 Posts
You cannot run jacketed cables like Romex in conduit.

I agree that running jacketed cable such as NM cable in conduit is not a good practice and I wouldn't do it, but can you show me where the NEC prohibits it?
 
  #29  
Old 04-29-19, 06:16 PM
E
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 52
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Casualjoe, I suppose I made a booboo. I guess itís a common belief, even among electricians that you cannot run Romex in a conduit, but in reality you can, especially in areas that need to be protected from physical damage.

As long as the conduit doesnít go outdoors, underground, or in any location considered ďwetĒ. This is because, while manufacturers of NM-B might use THWN insulation, they probably use THHN, and if there are no markings on the conductors, you cannot assume it uses THWN. The fill ratio must be de-rated to 40% of volume due to the jackets restricting heat loss.

Link for more information.
 
  #30  
Old 04-29-19, 07:00 PM
D
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,075
Received 45 Votes on 38 Posts
OK, question for clarity.
In post 21 Geo indicates that the buried pipe/conduit must be one continuous run.
As I understand this & as I have been told by someone else, the conduit has to be one continuous piece of pipe from the sub panel to the breaker panel at the shop. This can not be joints of conduit glued together.

In post 25, Tolyn posted a link for the correct wiring I need for buried/underground/wet locations. If you scroll down that page, it shows three items that are normally bought together. One is the electrical line, the second is a stick of plastic conduit... a joint of pipe that I was planing to use.

So, just for clarity, can I or cant I use the joint of pipe conduit mentioned on the page that is "normally bought together" with the underground wire? I understood that I had to use like a roll of that black pipe to run this wire in.
Its apparent that I am misunderstanding someone's terminology.

I much prefer to use joints of electrical underground conduit so it wont be so hard to pull through each joint one at at time rather than trying to pull 150' or so of wire through one piece of pipe. I mean, I gotta do this by myself.
 
  #31  
Old 04-30-19, 05:30 AM
I
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 10,944
Received 43 Votes on 41 Posts
You might be misunderstanding with regard to conduit. The conduit run must be fully assembled (and glue dry if PVC) before pulling any wires through. You also cannot have any more than 360 degrees of bend between accessible pull points like junction boxes or condulet fittings (LB, LL, LR). You can use any combination of fittings or lengths of conduit pipe to build the conduit run as long as you follow those rules.

You are allowed to pull through something else as you assemble the conduit like a rope that will later help the wire pulling process, especially if you do not have a pull tape long enough to reach the longest segment.

Pulling wire by yourself can be tough, but with the right prep work it should go OK. First thing is to lay out the entire length of wire in a straight line and remove twists and tangles so the wire will pull straight in. Next make sure to tape up a good tapered head between the pull rope and the wires. Cover any sharp edges that might skin the wires as you pull them. Use plenty of wire pulling lube - squirt some directly in the conduit, squirt a big glob in your hand and run it down the wire. Do about 15-20' feet at a time, go to the other end and pull 20', back to the head add more lube, etc. You might need to jog it back and forth a little to get around bends, but with a tapered head it should eventually go through. Work at a steady pace so the lube doesn't dry out before the pull is done. You might need to fashion some apparatus to help guide the wire in the right direction - I've used things like a pipe stuck between the rungs of a step ladder as a makeshift pulley for example.
 
Reply
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: