Looking for member "Furd"

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  #1  
Old 06-29-19, 07:10 AM
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Looking for member "Furd"

I apologize in advance if this somehow violates posting rules.... but I am trying to connect with member "Furd" who gave some excellent advice as part of this discussion thread, especially his response #11 within that thread, (how to effectively deal with bonded-neutral generators that are used to support a home during a power-outage emergency, and powering everything through your home's main panel).

https://www.doityourself.com/forum/e...d-neutral.html

I am trying to reach Furd via Private Messaging system, but I may be doing something wrong. The system here warned me not to post to an old thread as I tried to do so.

Furd, if somehow you read this, can you contact me for the follow-on question I have? Thanks !!
 
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Old 06-29-19, 08:04 AM
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You should be able to click on Furd's name and send a PM. However as a new member you may not have enough posts.

Why not just post your question. There are a lot of other members here who can help you.
 
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Old 06-29-19, 08:42 AM
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Furd has some health issues and unfortunately isn't on the forums as much as he used to be. I'm sure he'll respond to your PM but it might be awhile. As noted above it's quicker to post your question in the open forum.
 
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Old 06-29-19, 08:43 AM
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We've communicated before via PM...so that isn't the problem. Seems to be maybe an issue of him not looking at his PM inbox enough. Not complaining...just saying. Seems he posts a lot and he may be pre-occupied. Hoping this may get his attention. Thanks for the hint, though.
 
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Old 06-29-19, 08:54 AM
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Sorry for his health issues.....hope it's all better and under control.

That said, maybe someone else here can help, using the referenced (other) discussion thread ....and his #11 response within that link....and finally this schematic that I will now post. I always feel more certain and comfortable using a wiring schematic instead of "text" when someone is describing important "how-to" wiring hints.

Here is the schematic with the question embedded on the dwg....basically, is this what Furd is suggesting? On the diagram, the 2 squares in the right side of the dwg depict the "front-half" and "back-half" of the Reliance PB30 inlet connection "box".

Name:  genny.JPG
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Last edited by PJmax; 06-30-19 at 03:34 PM. Reason: added pic from link
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Old 06-29-19, 08:55 AM
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The last post I saw he was also dealing with some computer issues. (Getting a new one)
 
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Old 06-29-19, 09:55 AM
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What was recommended is not NEC compliant. It trades off doing things wrong and having parallel currents with doing things wrong and not having a ground. Not having a ground with a portable system is a much higher danger than parallel currents on the grounding conductor. The right way is to disconnect the bonding jumper at the generator.
 
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Old 06-29-19, 10:14 AM
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I do not want to go over all the other options, and rehash this point again, as it was all out in the open for discussion within the original linked-post. However, I AM asking if Furd's #11 posting on the referenced link is captured correctly in the dwg I now submit.

If we do need to discuss this further....look at ALL the comments of the referenced thread...you will find that absent any way to also SWITCH neutrals (on/off/other) for the 2 times you are either on line power vs generator power....it seems no other way to go, will ever get you FULLY code compliant, no mater what you do when using a stand-by generator (made for stand-alone construction-sites)..... for home use, via the 240V chord ( maybe using a "transfer switch" system instead of the main-panel "interlock" system will....but we are not opening up that whole can of worms). The only other way I figure we could have gone, would be to modify the generator from bonded-neutral to floating neutral. I contacted the generator manufacturer and they would not advise how to do this and they said doing this would void warranty.

He (Furd) himself says as much that it's not fully NEC compiant....in the original thread he says--->

"Having a neutral-ground bond at the generator AND in the service panel will cause the neutral currents to return to the generator over BOTH the neutral AND the equipment ground conductors. While the risk is low this IS contrary to the National Electrical Code. Not connecting the equipment ground conductor at either the generator OR the house inlet connection removes this parallel path with a minimal danger. It still is not code compliant but the danger is pretty much limited to a ground fault condition in the generator-to-house interconnect cable. Taking pains to protect this cable from damage (don't lay it across a driveway and drive on it) minimizes any danger..."

Going further, In his response #11 of that thread, he adds this--->

" This will isolate the equipment grounding conductor in the interconnect cable (generator to house) and prevent any parallel currents from flowing in the equipment grounding conductor. This requires no modification of the generator nor of the interconnect cable. Absent a switched neutral in the service panel this is the best method available. It is NOT code compliant but the risk of any danger is extremely low.


So....coming back to the question I am asking....with all due respect...and fully understanding the code implications......can someone tell me if the Furd recommendation on the original discussion thread is depicted correctly in the dwg? Thanks.
 
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Old 06-29-19, 10:23 AM
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We don't things wrong here. No here will tell you to do it wrong.
 
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Old 06-29-19, 10:38 AM
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Furd has a good reputation with advice. Looking at all of his inputs in the various threads that deal with electrical issues, I feel comfortable with what he says. His bio also has..." Retired from design and operation of commercial/industrial power plants"....so I doubt he will give bad advice, and is well vetted for what he says.

That all said, and coming also from industry myself, I can fully appreciate that there can be conflicting or nuanced language in any code. Furd made a good explanation of what the risks are in doing things these different possible ways, and the attendant risks with each way one chooses. I really don't want this thread to be an extension of the first thread where these points and counter-points were already debated. That's why I wanted Furd's concurrance in looking at my schematic to cerify if it matches his text. Would apreciate if we can narrow the focus to that question. Thanks to everyone expessing concern.
 

Last edited by IPSC45; 06-29-19 at 11:59 AM.
  #11  
Old 06-30-19, 01:33 AM
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I purposely ignored the PM in that I have nothing more to say on the subject. There is no "code approved" method of connecting a portable generator to premises wiring. The method I detailed IS flawed but in my opinion it is a relatively minor flaw and properly done has a minimal hazard.
 
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Old 06-30-19, 05:35 AM
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Furd, as you can see I am not disagreeing with your premise.....my question is simply to ask for a verification if my schematic dwg matches your text description. Would nonetheless still appreciate such confirmation, if you'd be so kind.
 
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Old 06-30-19, 11:35 AM
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Please read response #9 in the original thread.

Do not forget WHY the neutral conductor is grounded in the first place. I detailed this at least once in my 18,000 plus responses on this forum and will NOT repeat it at this late date. In short, the neutral-ground bond is to facilitate the opening of the branch circuit overcurrent device (fuse or circuit breaker) in case of fault. In the case of using a panel interlock it is the panel-mounted overcurrent device that is in play and NOT the generator's overcurrent device that will trip.

This is ALL I am going to say on the subject.
 
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Old 06-30-19, 12:18 PM
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Why the irritation?...I'm not arguing with what you say. I am in AGREEMENT with the premise.

I'm ONLY asking if this DRAWING matches what you had suggested to do.... IN TEXT.

?????

Attachment 106470
 
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Old 06-30-19, 01:57 PM
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You indicated that you removed the neutral to ground bond in the generator. That is all you need to do. There is no need to remove any equipment grounding or modification thereof in the power inlet or anywhere else. If you do decide to use the generator in a portable fashion then make up a bonded plug adapter to restore the neutral/ground bond at the generator which was shown to you in your other post.
 
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Old 06-30-19, 02:08 PM
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Holy Smokes......I did NOT remove the bonded neutral ! You are confusing me with the actions of someone else, maybe with the original poster of the original linked-to thread. Yeah... HE finally removed the bond. Not me.

I am "IPSC45" .....let's keep it to this discussion thread only. I have a bonded neutral generator. I wish to wire-up per FURD's text suggestion ( the text that he offered as answer #11 to the original link). I prefer to SEE a diagram instead of depending on text interpretation.

AGAIN....here is the diagram


Can you open this diagram for viewing?....., or maybe it can't be opened and seen? Simple question.....If I wire it this way...would it match what FURD is suggesting to do? This shouldn't be so hard or so confusing
 

Last edited by PJmax; 06-30-19 at 03:36 PM. Reason: added pic
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Old 06-30-19, 02:28 PM
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Sorry I thought you were the one from the original post that had figured out how to remove the neutral bonding in the generator. I looked at your diagram and if I'm reading it correctly you are indicating modifying the equipment ground within the power inlet on the house. This is not necessary. Leave the power inlet wired as it comes. The 4 wire power feed from the main panel connects to the power inlet as normal. When using a 4 wire power cord from the gen to the power inlet you have the neutral and equipment ground connected to the house system and the only bond point of the neutral to ground is in the house system. This is why you remove the neutral bond to ground in the generator. In your diagram the ground conductor from the house connects to "G" on the power inlet socket and also jumpered to any metal boxes or plates as normally required. Somehow this has become more complicated than needed for you. Using a portable gen as standalone vs. connected to house electrical system has different ground/bonding requirements.

I will add, your diagram follows what Furd is suggesting.

Read this: https://blog.norwall.com/generator-i...trical-ground/
 

Last edited by pattenp; 06-30-19 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 06-30-19, 03:27 PM
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I am "IPSC45" .....let's keep it to this discussion thread only
Well if you had started your own thread to begin with and just explained what you want to know, there would be no confusion as to who's who and what's what. Not sure why anyone has to apologize to you.
 
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Old 06-30-19, 05:59 PM
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@Shadeladie....I did...I STARTED this thread....and REFERENCED the old thread to give proper backdrop to the issue.

AND, if I may say, I asked a pretty straighforward question, namely, "Does my diagram follow the recommendation that FURD gives in the other (first) thread, his response #11 of the first thread?". Pretty straighforward.

The referenced thread was shown specifically not to confuse anyone, as they can see for themselves what was said earlier ( and why). Who says I'm demanding an apology? Just where do you see that being asked for?

All I'm asking is confirmation. How much more clear can my question be? That said, you still have to keep straight, "who-posts-what" whether its in this thread or another.

----

@pattenp.......in my schematic, the 2 "boxes" on the right side of the diagram are the front and back halves of the Reliance PB30 inlet box. It has a ground jumper from the front to the back of the box that ( I figure) I need to remove,,,, that would result in the inactive ground that FURD seems to recommend. I label the short wire to remove and the other wire to keep as-is. Notice, you are assuming I am removing the bond in the generator and say I don't have to remove the ground connection inside the PB30 box. But the point you are missing, is that I AM NOT CHANGING THE GENERATOR FROM BONDED NEUTRAL TO FLOATING. I specifically say the instructions to do that was NOT provided by the generator manufacturer, and he wouldn't warrant the generator if I did this on my own...... so the GENERATOR REMAINS BONDED NEUTRAL INTERNAL TO ITSELF. That's why FURD recommended what he did to avoid having 2 places where its bonded...and I drew up the diagram that I did....to ask if his text and my dwg match.

Wow.....didn't expect this level of misunderstanding.........
 
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Old 06-30-19, 06:17 PM
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I do not recommend doing what furd suggest. Leave the gen neutral bonded if you are unwilling to remove the bonding. The cure of potental dual paths by removing the equipment ground connection is worse than the bonded neutral at the gen. It's a situation where the cure is worse than the disease. Personally I would void the gen warranty by removing the bond before not having the equipment ground connected. Also when it comes to the warranty how would the manufacturer know about the removal of the bond unless you tell them?
 
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Old 06-30-19, 07:10 PM
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@pattenp..... if I do what you say instead.... to remove the bond in the generator.....are you able to tell me which wire? I ask because my generator is the same Predator as the one stated by "highlt" of the first thread that I referenced....and he posts this "almost helpful" reponse (with picture) that I will repeat here--->

------------

I managed to locate and break the bond on the Predator. It was inside the control module on the ground lug. I've attached a picture of it for anyone else who might want to know how to break the bond for a Predator Generator.

I plan to proceed with installing a 30 amp breaker in my my main panel with an Interlock. Since the neutral is floating now there will be only one bond in the system. This generator will only be used when hooked to the house electrical system but I will have a BIG note stating FLOATING NEUTRAL DO NOT USE STAND ALONE. This should be safe and meet code now. Waiting for official report from Electrical Inspector. Thanks for your help.

Attached Images
Picture shows 3 wires connected to ground lug. He says, "I've attached a picture of it for anyone else who might want to know how to break the bond for a Predator Generator."..

.Well, I want to know, but the manufacturer won't tell me.... and neither will this picture.... without some added detail help from someone. Which wire is this?
 
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Old 06-30-19, 08:26 PM
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Yellow with green stripe is ground, white is neutral. Disconnect the white from the ground screw and tape up the end of the white.
 
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Old 07-01-19, 05:10 AM
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Thank you "pattenp".... much apprecated.

I guess a good "check" to do afterwards if you remove the white wire as you suggest...would be to do a continuity check ( generator "off")..... with a meter on the 240v outlet of the generator......between the ground and neutral openings. If continuity shows, it's still bonded. If no continuity, then the unit was successfully changed to floating or open neutral. As "highlt" mentioned in his original thread, would probably also be a good idea to label the genset as now being in "floating neutral" condition, in case it is ever considered for stand-alone use like at a construction site. .....Thanks again.......
 
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Old 07-01-19, 07:04 AM
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I did the same neutral unbonding on a Generac generator and put label saying floating neutral and also made up a plug to bond the neutral if I ever use the gen as a true portable. You will find some gen manufactures will give instructions on removing the neutral bond and suggest doing so when the gen is used connected to a house electrical system.
 
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Old 07-01-19, 10:01 AM
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Pattenp says.... "You will find some gen manufactures will give instructions on removing the neutral bond and suggest doing so when the gen is used connected to a house electrical system."

In my case Harbor Freight / Predator.....were of no help whatsoever and did not provide ANY info doing this...and went as far to say any mods made by customer would void any warranty. The "Furd Method" therefore looked good to me in that the risks were well spelled-outt , and could be managed by carefully monitoring the connecting-cable condition ( ie, "don't drive over it", etc),
 
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