50 amp 4 wire into 3 wire 20 amp 220v outlet
#1
09-09-19, 02:49 AM
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50 amp 4 wire into 3 wire 20 amp 220v outlet
Okay guys, I’m fairly certain I’m doing this correctly, but I thought I’d double check before flipping breaker on.
I bought a Spark EV which allows up to a maximum 16 Amps of AC at 240v or about 3.8 kw to charge my new car. All of my single pole breakers are being used, which is why I decided to use the 50 amp double pole breaker currently wired to my Stove/Oven Nema 14-50 outlet. It’s currently a 4 wire 6 gauge setup with 2 hots, a neutral & a bare wire ground.
Currently the Stove/Oven is gas, which means the range isn’t using the 50a outlet at all. Although I’d like to make it available to use if needed.
I purchased the the exact same wire and cut the 6 gauge wire strand in the attic and installed a J-Box in the attic. I now have the black from the panel connected to the black going to the range and the black connected to the j-box near the EV charger. (All others are connected the same as well (Red, White & Ground))
I did this so that if I decide to buy a larger EV in the future, and needed more watts to charge with, it’ll still be available.
The new J-Box in the garage now has 4 - 6 gauge wires coming into it, and are now connected to a 20 amp 240v outlet. I have the black & red wires connected to hot, and the bare wire connected to ground. The white neutral I have capped off.
I’m assuming unless I decide to change the outlet to a larger outlet in the future, I shouldn’t need to connect the white wire... should I? Although, since the white wire is connected to neutral in the panel, does it need to be connected somehow? Or can it stay that way until I decide to use it in he future? Should I disconnect the white wire from the panel? Or should I keep it connected? Am I doing something wrong? Or am I correct in thinking I can just leave it as is with a wire nut on it until I plan on using it?
Thanks guys!
I bought a Spark EV which allows up to a maximum 16 Amps of AC at 240v or about 3.8 kw to charge my new car. All of my single pole breakers are being used, which is why I decided to use the 50 amp double pole breaker currently wired to my Stove/Oven Nema 14-50 outlet. It’s currently a 4 wire 6 gauge setup with 2 hots, a neutral & a bare wire ground.
Currently the Stove/Oven is gas, which means the range isn’t using the 50a outlet at all. Although I’d like to make it available to use if needed.
I purchased the the exact same wire and cut the 6 gauge wire strand in the attic and installed a J-Box in the attic. I now have the black from the panel connected to the black going to the range and the black connected to the j-box near the EV charger. (All others are connected the same as well (Red, White & Ground))
I did this so that if I decide to buy a larger EV in the future, and needed more watts to charge with, it’ll still be available.
The new J-Box in the garage now has 4 - 6 gauge wires coming into it, and are now connected to a 20 amp 240v outlet. I have the black & red wires connected to hot, and the bare wire connected to ground. The white neutral I have capped off.
I’m assuming unless I decide to change the outlet to a larger outlet in the future, I shouldn’t need to connect the white wire... should I? Although, since the white wire is connected to neutral in the panel, does it need to be connected somehow? Or can it stay that way until I decide to use it in he future? Should I disconnect the white wire from the panel? Or should I keep it connected? Am I doing something wrong? Or am I correct in thinking I can just leave it as is with a wire nut on it until I plan on using it?
Thanks guys!
Last edited by -Sparky-; 09-09-19 at 02:52 AM. Reason: Didn’t finish.
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#2
09-09-19, 04:25 AM
NEC 210.21(B)(3) says that receptacles on a 50A branch circuit must be rated at 50A. I suggest putting a 60A breaker panel in your garage fed by your 50A circuit, and install a 20A 2-pole breaker in it to supply your 20A outlet. You would connect your 6 gauge neutral wire to the neutral bar of the 60A panel, but remove the (usually green) screw that bonds the neutral bar to the panel housing.
This is a useful document about the requirements for receptacles and their circuits:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.legrand.us/-/media/files/ews/installation%2520guidelines%2520for%2520receptacles%2520on%2520small%2520appliance%2520branch%2520circuits.ashx&ved=2ahUKEwjL0_WpzMPkAhXFnuAKHWggDgsQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2qkI6nj5y05ZnWs2qaxTx-
This is a useful document about the requirements for receptacles and their circuits:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.legrand.us/-/media/files/ews/installation%2520guidelines%2520for%2520receptacles%2520on%2520small%2520appliance%2520branch%2520circuits.ashx&ved=2ahUKEwjL0_WpzMPkAhXFnuAKHWggDgsQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2qkI6nj5y05ZnWs2qaxTx-
#3
09-09-19, 07:11 AM
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That article seems to be talking specifically to 110v outlets. I’m not installing a 110v outlet. I am installing a 220/240v outlet using a Nema 6-20. Did you read the description? I understand what “should be done” but I’m asking if what I’ve done is technically correct or not.
#4
09-09-19, 07:58 AM
Everything is good except the feeding 50A breaker needs to be reduced to a 20A because of the 20A outlet. Not sure if the 20A breaker can take #6. I'm surprised you got #6 to fit in a 20A outlet.
#5
09-09-19, 09:30 AM
Member
Hi, it is not correct, you cannot feed a 125 volt 20 receptacle with a 50 amp breaker, best bet is to do what was previously mentioned, 60 A Subpanel.
Geo
Geo
#6
09-09-19, 10:25 AM
Member
No, it is not "technically good" to have a live 50A recept with a tap for 20A. Even if you downsized the breaker to 20A. The next owner may want an electric range, and then upsize the breaker back to 50, since each end has #6 in view.
Maybe your panel will support half size 2 pole breakers. So, potentially, something like a el. water heater and the new garage 20A recept would be now a duplex breaker set.
Maybe your panel will support half size 2 pole breakers. So, potentially, something like a el. water heater and the new garage 20A recept would be now a duplex breaker set.
#7
09-09-19, 10:49 AM
Unhook the #6 gauge wires from the 20 amp panel breaker and neutral bar.. Splice on a short (6 inch or so) length of #12 wire of the same color to each #6 wire end. Connect the other ends of these #12. pigtails to the respective breaker terminals and neutral bar.
A subpanel at the far end the #6 wiring as described previously would be a medium or long range plan. Alternatively the subpanel might be put in the attic where you put the J-box. There are almost no situations where a simple T connection may be made to one 240 volt branch circuit in order to feed appliances or other loads in two different places.
During the time the #6 wiring is repurposed for 20 amps, the existing 50 amp stove receptacle should not be hooked in.
A subpanel at the far end the #6 wiring as described previously would be a medium or long range plan. Alternatively the subpanel might be put in the attic where you put the J-box. There are almost no situations where a simple T connection may be made to one 240 volt branch circuit in order to feed appliances or other loads in two different places.
During the time the #6 wiring is repurposed for 20 amps, the existing 50 amp stove receptacle should not be hooked in.
#8
09-09-19, 02:10 PM
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Okay all, first of all some of you need to read the entire initial description before responding. It’s a 240v receptacle, not 120v. It’s meant to take 20 amps at 240v.
Second, in the garage where the wires end, inside a jbox, I have pigtailed 10 gauge wire to the 6 gauge, and the 10 gauge is connected to the terminal, not the 6 gauge. Of course you can’t connect 6 wire to a 20 amp receptacle lol. There are some geniuses in this forum!
Third, the garage receptacle will be set on a digital timer through the EV charger software, which will only come on at 10:00 at night, and only stay on until as late as 4:00 AM. The charger uses 16 amps.
Its a charger I intend on using until I get an EV with a longer range, which at that time I will just install a Nema 14-50 receptacle, and use that to charge the EV. At that time, when I start using 40ish amps for the future car charger, I’ll disconnect the plug behind the stove.
Just so all you geniuses know, a typical electric stove top burner uses 1500w and the oven uses about 3500-5000w. Even if a future buyer had every burner on high, and the oven set to broil, (which isn’t very likely) the stove would only be using a maximum of 46 amps. Oh, and it’s very unlikely that this would all be happening simultaneously between the hours of 10 pm and 4 am.
Second, in the garage where the wires end, inside a jbox, I have pigtailed 10 gauge wire to the 6 gauge, and the 10 gauge is connected to the terminal, not the 6 gauge. Of course you can’t connect 6 wire to a 20 amp receptacle lol. There are some geniuses in this forum!
Third, the garage receptacle will be set on a digital timer through the EV charger software, which will only come on at 10:00 at night, and only stay on until as late as 4:00 AM. The charger uses 16 amps.
Its a charger I intend on using until I get an EV with a longer range, which at that time I will just install a Nema 14-50 receptacle, and use that to charge the EV. At that time, when I start using 40ish amps for the future car charger, I’ll disconnect the plug behind the stove.
Just so all you geniuses know, a typical electric stove top burner uses 1500w and the oven uses about 3500-5000w. Even if a future buyer had every burner on high, and the oven set to broil, (which isn’t very likely) the stove would only be using a maximum of 46 amps. Oh, and it’s very unlikely that this would all be happening simultaneously between the hours of 10 pm and 4 am.
#9
09-09-19, 02:40 PM
Member
Hi, I just want to be clear, your still feeding the 20 Amp receptacle from the 50 Amp breaker.
Geo
Geo
#11
09-09-19, 03:47 PM
From the top of the second page of the document I linked to in my post above:
"In accordance with Section 210.21(B)(1), If a single receptacle is installed on a branch circuit, it shall have an ampere rating of not less than that of the branch circuit. Also , Section 210.21(B)(3) states that a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles or outlets shall use receptacles that are rated in accordance with Table 210.21(B)(3)"
That table from the NEC is also on that same page, and it has no limitations on the voltage except that it is from a section of the NEC that applies to circuits less than 600 volts ("low voltage" in the NEC). The table specifically states that receptacles on circuits with a current rating of 50 amps must also be rated at 50 amps.
"In accordance with Section 210.21(B)(1), If a single receptacle is installed on a branch circuit, it shall have an ampere rating of not less than that of the branch circuit. Also , Section 210.21(B)(3) states that a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles or outlets shall use receptacles that are rated in accordance with Table 210.21(B)(3)"
That table from the NEC is also on that same page, and it has no limitations on the voltage except that it is from a section of the NEC that applies to circuits less than 600 volts ("low voltage" in the NEC). The table specifically states that receptacles on circuits with a current rating of 50 amps must also be rated at 50 amps.
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