Another Service Entrance

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Old 10-13-19, 08:47 PM
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Another Service Entrance

Got another project that involves new services at another one of the properties. For the most part I have it all down because the installation is straightforward.



Ground rod is not in just yet. First one will be in the below pictured hole and the second will be ~6ft apart.


From the first LB i have a run that goes across the upper wall framing.











The first subpanel will be installed on a 125A breaker and subsequently providing power for indoor outlets on the garage, lights both inside and out, a dedicated outlet for a network cabinet, a pump for a well in the same room as the panel, a dryer outlet for future use and a L5-30R for a nearby fifth-wheel trailer.

The extra capped conduit will be eventually for another outbuilding and a house that will be built in the future.

The droop will be terminating from the nearby pole. I stood near the pole and the corner of the SE building when i took the below pictures.





The real curiosity is as to what I'm going to do with this roof penetration. On a shingled roof I would use a flashing with a rubber seal. Is there another similar solution, or can I just throw a bunch of flex-seal tape and sealer at it?



To also clarify, I'm going to put 4x4 cross studs between the framing where I need to affix the panel/meter socket and service mast to significant supports.
 

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04-30-20, 04:29 AM
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I would have used 1900 boxes and raised covers instead of the handy boxes. Not enough room.
 
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Old 10-13-19, 09:37 PM
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You can use a rubber service boot on the metal roof. A little silicone would help it to seal.
A little neater than a bunch of silicone.

Since you haven't wired yet you can slip one down the pipe.
Otherwise they make split boots for later installation.
 
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Old 10-13-19, 09:45 PM
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I heard this was the solution and thank you for confirming it for me!

Any other bits you can comment on towards the job?
 
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Old 10-13-19, 09:53 PM
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I was looking at the creative conduit work with the pull tee's. I would not normally bring the incoming wiring in and the outgoing wires in the same conduit. I'm not quite sure how that sits with code.

I'll wait for some of the sharper guys to comment on that.
 
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Old 10-13-19, 10:14 PM
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I'm not entirely sure what you mean. The conduit that is installed will only be for feeder circuits passing from the main panel to the one subpanel and two future subpanels. To my understanding a conduit system can hold multiple feeders. But I agree, lets see what the codesters think!
 
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Old 10-15-19, 11:02 AM
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I would not normally bring the incoming wiring in and the outgoing wires in the same conduit. I'm not quite sure how that sits with code.

I don't believe it's a problem since the main disconnect is outside.
 
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Old 10-15-19, 07:10 PM
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I think you will find it very difficult adding additional feeders in that conduit, especially with the LB's and LL's. Instead of the PVC tee(s), I would recommend a pull box. The pull box would need to be a minimum of 16" x16" if that is 2" conduit.

Personally I would consider a 200 amp panel inside and just feed the future feeders to the other buildings off that panel. You can save the 125 amp panel for one of the future buildings.
 
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Old 10-15-19, 10:18 PM
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Worst case scenario, there is an eccentric knockout in the middle bottom of the breaker panel that can accommodate a 2" conduit. That way I can run whatever power I may or may not need for the house on it's own raceway.

Below I made a quick map showing the in-place conduit and a posed second conduit dedicated for the house run.



Is it particularly unusual to supply a house with a 125A panel? The other house I have is still on a 60A fusebox and seems to be fine as far as power availability. 200A just seems to be a modern "may as well" option than a necessity....
 
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Old 10-16-19, 02:05 PM
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I reread the post from Tolyn and I now see what hes getting at.

I'm not too worried about saving a couple hundred bucks on panels, namely because I've already bought most of them. I also put fourth this power system design because I wanted to have a whole house generator before the main service panel adjacent to the meter socket where my service main and subpanel circuits all connect to. Its preference to be honest.

It really comes down to whats acceptable for code compliance. On this property the washer/dryer will be in the garage once I finish the space and make it more like an interior room. So a lot of the load a house would have will be in that garage as far as some higher-power appliances.

This conclusively comes to what power rating the house may or may not need. I see a lot of houses with 100A services in my area. So 125-150A seems sufficient. Something else I read about was de-rating parallel feeders due to induction? Not sure if that applies for multiple powered feeders for separate panels.
 
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Old 04-30-20, 02:23 AM
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Man it's been a long time since I posted on this.


I got a lot of work done. Cable is pulled and up. Found I couldn't use NM-B cable in unfinished buildings I dont intend to finish, so I opted for MC which opened a huge grounding can of worms since it has to terminate to metal boxes. All that aside I'm very close to calling in for inspection(s).


These pictures are old, so the pigtails and extra length havent been cut and wire-nutted.
















This panel image is the latest I have.




Also, as I read it NOW, I cannot use 240.4(B) to round the 115A 75*C rating of 115A to 125A, so I'm just gonna swap the 125A breaker I got for a 100A. Not a big deal since the only equipment in this building thats heavy usage will be a washer, dryer and well pump.


Ive also added a lot more wire straps and added two 10/3 circuits (pump/dryer) and one 10/2 circuit for an L530-R for a trailer hookup.


I'm also going to be protecting all receptacle circuits with GFIs, either the first in a series or all on parallel or single outlet circuits.

And to note the extra conduits I erroneously put in, Those will likely be cut right after the T conduit body and capped. I read the multiple current conductors section and now understand any additional runs from the main will certainly require additional conduits.

Thanks for the inputs!
 
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Old 04-30-20, 04:29 AM
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I would have used 1900 boxes and raised covers instead of the handy boxes. Not enough room.
 
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Old 04-30-20, 06:15 PM
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I cannot use 240.4(B) to round the 115A 75*C rating of 115A to 125A
Why not?

I would have used 1900 boxes and raised covers instead of the handy boxes. Not enough room.
I agree 100%. Especially if you need to install a GFCI

You can only have 13 #12 wires or 15 #14 wires in a deep 4" x 4" box. I see 7 cables in one box (14 wires plus 1 ground) You may need an extension ring.
 
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Old 04-30-20, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
I cannot use 240.4(B) to round the 115A 75*C rating of 115A to 125A
Why not?
From what I read it doesnt apply to feeders.

B) Overcurrent Devices Rated 800 Amperes or Less. The next higher standard overcurrent device rating (above the ampacity of the conductors being protected) shall be permitted to be used, provided all of the following conditions are met:

(1) The conductors being protected are not part of a branch circuit supplying more than one receptacle for cord-and-plug-connected portable loads.

Section 1 reads to me that it excludes feeder circuits and applies only to say a dedicated single receptacle circuit for a welder or other device that needs just a little higher rating than the common wire ampacity ratings, but doesn't justify the larger wire.

(2) The ampacity of the conductors does not correspond with the standard ampere rating of a fuse or a circuit breaker without overload trip adjustments above its rating (but that shall be permitted to have other trip or rating adjustments).

This also feels like motor ratings, which would fall outside of a typical rating for startup surge current.

(3) The next higher standard rating selected does not exceed 800 amperes."

Catchall case that doesnt apply to me.

So since all these dont read to me that they apply, I am just going to go for a 100A breaker. Its negligible to drop 25A when the circuits I'm installing wont be that high usage.

Quote:
I would have used 1900 boxes and raised covers instead of the handy boxes. Not enough room.
I agree 100%. Especially if you need to install a GFCI

You can only have 13 #12 wires or 15 #14 wires in a deep 4" x 4" box. I see 7 cables in one box (14 wires plus 1 ground) You may need an extension ring.
I actually already addressed this with one box. It was way too full so I switched it for another deep 4x4 box like the first in line of the overhead circuits. They're 4x4x2-1/8 and 33 cu in and the wires fit with extra space so if the inspector has a gripe I'll take the first fail and add extensions.

The GFI boxes could also be too small, but marginally. Again, if box sizing is the only issue I get dinged on I'll take it and resolve the issue.

The overhead handy boxes are not going to be GFI because theyre overhead and ive read about exemptions fror GFI requirements for out of reach luminare outlets.
 
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Old 04-30-20, 08:09 PM
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Any reason you went with the smallest box you could? Adding another circuit won't be easy.

It looks like you have two white wires under one screw on the neutral bar.

What gauge wire did you end up using for the feeder?
 
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Old 04-30-20, 10:43 PM
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Any reason you went with the smallest box you could? Adding another circuit won't be easy.
This outbuilding wont need any additional circuits along this run. If it does, itll be outdoor floodlights and I can route the MC another way along the outer wall. Plus, the breaker panel is about tapped for its capacity too.

This was all planned. Extensively.

It looks like you have two white wires under one screw on the neutral bar.
Good catch. I was in ground wire mode when I did this apparently. Thank you!

What gauge wire did you end up using for the feeder?
I pulled three #2 for the feeders plus a #6 ground (I think). Hence needing to drop the breaker to a 100A. THHN is rated for 130A at 90*C, but I cannot use that column because the breaker is only rated for 60/75*C, which is 115A for #2 THHN.
 
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Old 05-01-20, 06:30 PM
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From what I read it doesnt apply to feeders.
(1) The conductors being protected are not part of a branch circuit supplying more than one receptacle for cord-and-plug-connected portable loads.

A feeder is not a branch circuit so you are fine there.

(2) The ampacity of the conductors does not correspond with the standard ampere rating of a fuse or a circuit breaker without overload trip adjustments above its rating (but that shall be permitted to have other trip or rating adjustments).

This is only saying that the ampacity does not match a standard breaker or fuse size. It has nothing to do with motors.

You meet all three conditions so you would be fine at 125A but you are also fine at 100A
 
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Old 05-02-20, 03:18 PM
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(1) The conductors being protected are not part of a branch circuit supplying more than one receptacle for cord-and-plug-connected portable loads.

A feeder is not a branch circuit so you are fine there.
It is so obvious now that I look at it. Thanks Tolyn!

 
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Old 05-08-20, 09:27 PM
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Good news! Passed the first set of inspections and got green-tagged!

I do have to put box extensions on the two receptacle boxes previously discussed.

I also have to put GFCI outlets on the lighting receptacles, which is annoying but its code.

Thanks for all the help everyone! More to come as I get everything buttoned down for the final.
 
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Old 05-29-20, 04:15 PM
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So this is fun. Inspector came in for the final and says all the receptacles need to have weather cover plates. I ask for a code reference and interpretation and he gets SUPER aggressive saying if im going to challenge his decision he will write up everything thats wrong (specifically mentioning the MC cable and how everything is considered a "wet" location because the garage is an open building).

Any ideas guys? The way I read the code this would be considered a "moist" or "damp" location because it is not subject to direct saturation or rainfall.

I gave in to his aggressive response and decided to just do what he asked, but was really taken aback by how he went about this.
 
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Old 05-29-20, 05:59 PM
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The thing is he is the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) which means he can enforce the code anyway as he sees fit. You could go over his head a contact your state or city electrical board but it is likely not worth the hassle.

Is he requiring an In-use cover like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-Gang-W...IU-1/206469236

Or just a weather cover like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/BELL-1-G...0-0B/204207995 It sounds to me like he wants these if he said "weatherproof cover."
 
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Old 05-30-20, 09:29 AM
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I agree that in my opinion it would not be a wet location, but a damp location, but I am not the AHJ. Best to listen to Tolyn, he's giving you good advice. My opinion also is that the in-use covers wouldn't be required, but better to ask exactly what he wants.
 
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Old 05-30-20, 01:59 PM
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Tolyn - Hes wanting a weather cover. Like I said, ill just get it signed off and call it good.
 
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Old 06-01-20, 03:02 PM
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So I got the inspectors threatened citation of code violations.

For the most part, I agree with how he interperets whats going on. Hes classifying the building as an agricultural building citing 547.5 (C) 1&2 for excessive dust and damp OR wet locations needing weatherproof covers that are closed when the receptacles are not in use. Agree with this.

He also cites 406.9 (A) which covers damp locations and requires receptacles to have covers that are weatherproof when the cover is closed. Goes hand in hand with the last two cites. Fine here as well.

The last cite is what he threatened to use and looks like a feign to me.

Article 348 Flexible Metal Conduit

348.12 Uses Not Permitted
FMC shall not be used in the following:
(1) Wet locations

This is exactly what he wrote, so he seems to be claiming the location is wet.

If I hop over to section 100 i see these as the 2017 (Oregon's current revision) reads:

Wet Locations: Installations underground or in concrete slabs or
masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation
with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in
unprotected locations exposed to weather.

Damp Location: Locations protected from weather and not subject to
saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of
moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations
under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and
interior locations subject to moderated degrees of moisture, such as some
basements, some barns, and some cold storage buildings.
Canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations sounds applicable to this building.

In short, I'm ordering weatherproof covers and I now have a duly noted lesson to look to from here on, but Ill definitely challenge the MC installation citation if he wants to get super picky.
 
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Old 06-01-20, 05:31 PM
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As you already pointed out you have MC cable, not Flexible metal conduit. Perhaps he mistook the MC for FMC.

You could do the other items and when he mentions the "FMC" just politely tell him it is not FMC but MC.
 
 

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