I just don’t understand the point of electrical permits
#1
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I just don’t understand the point of electrical permits
First off, forgive me if this doesn’t belong here and forgive the ranting-nature of this post.
I just pulled my first electrical permit for work on my house. I ran two brand new circuits out to my shed.
I spent so much time researching and planning my project. When installing, I was meticulous to make sure everything was as perfect as possible. I dug that stupid trench to a tee, breaking my back to assure the entire thing was at least 18” deep.
The inspector comes to review the trench and spends no more than 3 minutes reviewing the 150’ length. While I was elated he passed it, I felt the entire ordeal was pointless.
Weeks later, after the electrical has been installed, the same “inspector” comes out and reviews the electrical. He isn’t an electrician! He asked me what type of wire I used when the orange cable jacket was clearly visible to him. He then states, “I’m still learning about this stuff myself.” I honestly don’t get it. What is the point of pulling a permit if I know more about electrical than the guy inspecting it?!
I keep reading these doomsday and fearmongering posts about how unpermitted work can lead to insurance not covering a loss or an owner not being able to sell a home until the proper permits have been pulled. That all seems like hogwash to me.
I do understand the town wants the permit money and I do understand they want to at least have someone (ANYONE) review the work but I really don’t see what the repercussions are if I never pull an electrical permit ever again.
I just pulled my first electrical permit for work on my house. I ran two brand new circuits out to my shed.
I spent so much time researching and planning my project. When installing, I was meticulous to make sure everything was as perfect as possible. I dug that stupid trench to a tee, breaking my back to assure the entire thing was at least 18” deep.
The inspector comes to review the trench and spends no more than 3 minutes reviewing the 150’ length. While I was elated he passed it, I felt the entire ordeal was pointless.
Weeks later, after the electrical has been installed, the same “inspector” comes out and reviews the electrical. He isn’t an electrician! He asked me what type of wire I used when the orange cable jacket was clearly visible to him. He then states, “I’m still learning about this stuff myself.” I honestly don’t get it. What is the point of pulling a permit if I know more about electrical than the guy inspecting it?!
I keep reading these doomsday and fearmongering posts about how unpermitted work can lead to insurance not covering a loss or an owner not being able to sell a home until the proper permits have been pulled. That all seems like hogwash to me.
I do understand the town wants the permit money and I do understand they want to at least have someone (ANYONE) review the work but I really don’t see what the repercussions are if I never pull an electrical permit ever again.
#2
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Even inspectors gotta learn sometime. And, don't forget that most inspectors inspect everything; footers, foundations, framing, electrical, plumbing... I don't expect them to be experts on everything.
Seeing an orange cable in or coming out of the ground should have been a red flag. I hope he gave it a closer examination to determine what cable you had underground.
Seeing an orange cable in or coming out of the ground should have been a red flag. I hope he gave it a closer examination to determine what cable you had underground.
CasualJoe
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#3
Permits are not meant to garner money (although it seems that way) but to insure consistent methods and materials are used throughout the town that meet safety codes. Can you imagine if permits were not needed. Everybody who thinks they are "experts" would build anything they want. Even with permit rules people will sneak all kinds of Rube-Goldberg contraptions. And how are insurance companies going to insure without standards to go by.
Without checking, IIRC correctly I think orange cable is under ground certified.
Without checking, IIRC correctly I think orange cable is under ground certified.
#4
I know your frustration. Just s few minutes ago I get a call from our town inspector to check on a very minor non conforming code on an electrical box that our A/C contractor installed. It was so minor that the company said most likely they won't even follow up on it. That was about three months ago. He will be here tomorrow morning to look at it. Talk about waste of time and money.
#5
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Did you put in vertical pipe to allow the measurement of conduit depth at a few points?
Did you expect the inspector to dig??
Did you expect the inspector to dig??
#6
Orange NM cable, if that was what was used, is for inside use only. Outside, even in conduit, is considered as wet area.
A single circuit is allowed to outbuildings, not two. If this was a multi-wire branch circuit it would count as one circuit.
A single circuit is allowed to outbuildings, not two. If this was a multi-wire branch circuit it would count as one circuit.
CasualJoe
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#7
It appears the inspector was there twice. The first time for a rough.
If that orange cable is type NM-b
I've never seen orange underground cable..... ever.
if I know more about electrical than the guy inspecting it?!
I've never seen orange underground cable..... ever.
CasualJoe
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#9
What is the point of pulling a permit if I know more about electrical than the guy inspecting it?!
I agree the inspector should know what he is doing; I also have had that frustration many times. A qualified inspector would have never passed your installation of NM-B cable underground, that is the point behind a permit and proper inspection.
I dug that stupid trench to a tee, breaking my back to assure the entire thing was at least 18” deep.
#11
Inspections can absolutely be a joke and are totally a way to make money.
My first side job was a basement. Inspector came to check the rough-in, was happy, and told me "I'll just sign off now, I'm sure the final connections will be done right."
While I took the compliment, how does he know I'm going to finish the job right?
I also did construction, where some jobs never actually had an inspector come see anything. And some jobs where I knew our guys did some stuff wrong but he didn't catch it.
Just red tape to deal with really.
My first side job was a basement. Inspector came to check the rough-in, was happy, and told me "I'll just sign off now, I'm sure the final connections will be done right."
While I took the compliment, how does he know I'm going to finish the job right?
I also did construction, where some jobs never actually had an inspector come see anything. And some jobs where I knew our guys did some stuff wrong but he didn't catch it.
Just red tape to deal with really.
#12
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I’m not attempting to be confrontational here but a number of you are completely missing my point.
Regardless, in order to clear-up some inaccuracies, the orange jacket was the 10/3 Romex installed in my basement. That Romex gets transitioned to THWN conductors inside PVC which then goes outside to the shed.
My inspector was completely hands-off. Didn't test polarity, GFCI functionality, etc. How does he know I don't have an open ground?
I actually asked my insurance agent this very question and he said insurance companies don't care about that sort of thing. He said he's never heard of a case where a company didn't cover a loss because permits weren't pulled.
But I digress, having an inspector review the work doesn't mean the work was performed accurately and is safe to use.
Regardless, in order to clear-up some inaccuracies, the orange jacket was the 10/3 Romex installed in my basement. That Romex gets transitioned to THWN conductors inside PVC which then goes outside to the shed.
While I took the compliment, how does he know I'm going to finish the job right?
And how are insurance companies going to insure without standards to go by.
But I digress, having an inspector review the work doesn't mean the work was performed accurately and is safe to use.
#13
He said he's never heard of a case where a company didn't cover a loss because permits weren't pulled.
Some of the half **s things I've seen people do (myself included when I was younger), makes me glad that there are rules, permits and inspectors. Sure it's a PETA but better than non at all.
#14
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Inspectors are people just like us - some are easy going and will let stuff slide, some are real anal and follow the exact letter of the law while most are somewhere in between. Even if the inspector is easy going or lax on his duties, the fact that you pulled a permit generally means you plan meeting or exceeding code.
Norm201
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#15
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That might be true, but what if the code was not followed? And how would you know if code was followed? By inspection and permits.
Even if the inspector is easy going or lax on his duties, the fact that you pulled a permit generally means you plan meeting or exceeding code.
The only reason I pulled one is because the work is visible from my street. I don't want any nosy neighbor's calling town hall on me.
#16
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I have to 100%7 agree with you on this one.
The panel in attached pictures just passed inspection today.
There more than a few violation in this panel, yet inspector did not catch any.
Either the inspector didn't even bother, or didn't know the electrical code.
This was done by a licensed electrician and I argued with him about the violations, but he was insisting everything is right. Now the inspector passed it without any issue and the electrician wins the argument.
The panel in attached pictures just passed inspection today.
There more than a few violation in this panel, yet inspector did not catch any.
Either the inspector didn't even bother, or didn't know the electrical code.
This was done by a licensed electrician and I argued with him about the violations, but he was insisting everything is right. Now the inspector passed it without any issue and the electrician wins the argument.
Last edited by PJmax; 10-30-19 at 03:57 PM. Reason: resized pics/labeled #1
#17
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I agree that inspections are often a waste of time and can lead to problems when trying to finish a job on time.
But, what if a community didn't have them? Without inspections to verify the building code was followed, there wouldn't be a need for building codes. And without building codes …?
But, what if a community didn't have them? Without inspections to verify the building code was followed, there wouldn't be a need for building codes. And without building codes …?
#18
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I agree that the inspectors are necessary. However, inspectors who doesn't know what they are doing shouldn't be doing the inspection.
Personally, I think the inspection should be done by the person licensed in the trade.
As for the things that are wrong in the panel I posted earlier.
1. Ground wire connected to a neutral bus bar in a sub panel.
2. Ground is not bonded to the panel (bonding screw for neutral was removed as well)
3. 2 neutral wires under single screw in neutral bus bar
4. CTL tandem breakers were installed on non-CTL bus by removing rejection tab (the electrician claims that is how it is supposed to be done)
5. MWBC connected to the same bus. No handle tie either. Installed on breakers far a part from each other. (The electrician claims it doesn't matter and actually safer to put on same bus as it will be 120V instead of 240V.. )
The inspector did not catch any of these even after looking a the panel for about 5 min.
Personally, I think the inspection should be done by the person licensed in the trade.
As for the things that are wrong in the panel I posted earlier.
1. Ground wire connected to a neutral bus bar in a sub panel.
2. Ground is not bonded to the panel (bonding screw for neutral was removed as well)
3. 2 neutral wires under single screw in neutral bus bar
4. CTL tandem breakers were installed on non-CTL bus by removing rejection tab (the electrician claims that is how it is supposed to be done)
5. MWBC connected to the same bus. No handle tie either. Installed on breakers far a part from each other. (The electrician claims it doesn't matter and actually safer to put on same bus as it will be 120V instead of 240V.. )
The inspector did not catch any of these even after looking a the panel for about 5 min.
#21
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The purpose of inspections is to help ensure the work is being done to code. No inspector is going to take the time to check every little part of the job. The expectation is that the contractor is going to follow code and the inspector is there to double-check that the contractor isn't trying to cut corners. Ultimately it's the contractor's responsibility that things are done safely and to code.
Also most inspectors (and contractors) can tell within a few minutes of being on a job site whether the work is being done well or not. It sounds like you had everything neat, done well, etc... which makes it both easier to inspect and more likely to be correct.
Consider it a compliment that you did a good job!
And trust me, I've been in houses where it was obvious that permits weren't obtained... and it can be scary!
Also most inspectors (and contractors) can tell within a few minutes of being on a job site whether the work is being done well or not. It sounds like you had everything neat, done well, etc... which makes it both easier to inspect and more likely to be correct.
Consider it a compliment that you did a good job!
And trust me, I've been in houses where it was obvious that permits weren't obtained... and it can be scary!
#22
But I digress, having an inspector review the work doesn't mean the work was performed accurately and is safe to use.
#23
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The purpose of inspections is to help ensure the work is being done to code. No inspector is going to take the time to check every little part of the job. The expectation is that the contractor is going to follow code and the inspector is there to double-check that the contractor isn't trying to cut corners. Ultimately it's the contractor's responsibility that things are done safely and to code.
#24
@ lambition...... your panel and pictures don't really belong in this thread but while I'm on the subject..... that is a main panel. It is wired correctly. The neutrals and grounds ARE connected together by design. Someone chose to put neutrals on one side and grounds on the other. They can both be on either side. I will agree that the neutral bonding screw is missing and needs to be installed.
I labeled your first picture.
I labeled your first picture.
#25
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.. that is a main panel. It is wired correctly.
It is not the panel design that determines if it is main panel, but how it is fed.
This is a sub panel in a apartment unit. There is a main breaker in the basement of the building.
Ground wire should been wired to a ground bus bar (sold separate), but the electrician says that is illegal. LOL
The reason I posted pictures were to show how many inspectors don't understand or don't care for the code.
#27
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Then there should have been an additional ground bar. The two there are neutral only.
#28
This was done by a licensed electrician and I argued with him about the violations, but he was insisting everything is right.
I believe you have uncovered an issue in the licensing system in your state or municipality. I have never lived in a state where individual electricians are licensed and lean more towards licensing of contractors, by county or municipality, who oversee their electricians after a strict and thorough examination.
#29
My state Journeymen and Master electricians must have their respective licenses (Master or Journeymen). You must also have a contractor's license to do work for other people and that "shop" must have one Master which is known as the master of record.
So, as a licensed Journeyman I can only work for a licensed electrical contractor. Also for each Journeymen or Master on a job you can have no more than two unlicensed apprentices working under them. Apprentices also must be registered with the state.
So, as a licensed Journeyman I can only work for a licensed electrical contractor. Also for each Journeymen or Master on a job you can have no more than two unlicensed apprentices working under them. Apprentices also must be registered with the state.
#30
My state Journeymen and Master electricians must have their respective licenses (Master or Journeymen). You must also have a contractor's license to do work for other people and that "shop" must have one Master which is known as the master of record.
That's an interesting arrangement and one I might be in favor of as well. My only experience working with "so-called" licensed electricians in another state was nothing like that. My experience was that this other state had dumbed down the licensing requirements/testing so that just about anyone could pass their test to become a licensed electrician and then they could do work on their own after that. That essentially made them individual one-man contractors with no other insurance or bonding requirements that I am aware of.
#31
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When my state first introduced legislation to license electricians they had a grace period where anyone could get a license by passing a test. The test was whether or not they could write a check for $25. and not have it bounce!
When I replaced the Service on my previous home, around 1977, I took the day off from my regular job to meet with the city electrical inspector. Around four in the afternoon I noticed a man looking at the overhead wiring and went out to see a car with the power company's logo on the door and I asked the man if he was also the city inspector. He replied, "No, he has already been here and called me telling me it was okay for use." I replied that if anyone else had been here I never saw them and the permit was not signed by anyone. The power guy said that wasn't unusual as all "they" (the city) wanted was the money from the permit.
The power company inspector wanted a "backstay" on the mast but was otherwise okay with what I had done. I went inside and told my wife who then told me I had to call the city inspector and get him to sign the permit. That's when my problems started.
I won't bore anyone with what happened other to say my new service was delayed several weeks and the stupid "inspector" never did sign the permit. I wonder if he even knew how to sign his name?
I had another job, this one in Seattle, where I had PVC conduit underground running to a gate with an electric opener. I transitioned to IMC (steel) conduit to come above ground and the inspector said that EMT was not listed for that purpose. I pointed out it was NOT EMT but IMC and he apologized for his mistake. A week later after the gate had been installed I noticed their people had installed EMT for the vehicle sensor and keypad controller. Was EMT okay because this was low-voltage wiring? Not in my opinion but then I'm just an idiot.
When I replaced the Service on my previous home, around 1977, I took the day off from my regular job to meet with the city electrical inspector. Around four in the afternoon I noticed a man looking at the overhead wiring and went out to see a car with the power company's logo on the door and I asked the man if he was also the city inspector. He replied, "No, he has already been here and called me telling me it was okay for use." I replied that if anyone else had been here I never saw them and the permit was not signed by anyone. The power guy said that wasn't unusual as all "they" (the city) wanted was the money from the permit.
The power company inspector wanted a "backstay" on the mast but was otherwise okay with what I had done. I went inside and told my wife who then told me I had to call the city inspector and get him to sign the permit. That's when my problems started.
I won't bore anyone with what happened other to say my new service was delayed several weeks and the stupid "inspector" never did sign the permit. I wonder if he even knew how to sign his name?
I had another job, this one in Seattle, where I had PVC conduit underground running to a gate with an electric opener. I transitioned to IMC (steel) conduit to come above ground and the inspector said that EMT was not listed for that purpose. I pointed out it was NOT EMT but IMC and he apologized for his mistake. A week later after the gate had been installed I noticed their people had installed EMT for the vehicle sensor and keypad controller. Was EMT okay because this was low-voltage wiring? Not in my opinion but then I'm just an idiot.
#32
I should have also mentioned that MN requires an apprentice to have 8000 hours of on the job work in order to take the journeyman test. (or 2 years of trade school and 6000 hours) Then a Journeyman must pass a master's test to get a Master's license.
#33
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I've heard recommendations of contacting your mayor and town councilman to help improve the building department - either to get out bad inspectors or just improve it overall. Granted, I've never attempted, and your mileage may vary depending on your town/city size.