Permits,Inspectors,and DIYERS

I know that the permitting protocol varies from city to city so I am looking for guidance in general terms here. Can I make drawings of my proposed home rewiring job, submit them to the city for a permit, do the work myself, and get inspected by a city inspector? My intent is to have somebody check my work. I have done many small residential jobs (adding circuits, installing GFCI's, extending circuits, installing lighting systems...) but nothing of this size. I have a 99 code book as well as a residential wiring reference written by R. Mullin. I am also a licensed Mechanical Engineer. I was told by a friend that only licensed electricians can do the work I'm considering and get permits and city inspections.

 

Your friend is probably right.
The fastest way to find out for sure, however, is to just call your local City Building Inspector and ask.
It varies from place to place, as you said. Out in the country, where I'm at, a homeowner can do any personal home construction or remodeling work as long as it it meets the appropriate code at every phase of the inspection.
In most places though, I believe that a licensed electrician must do all electrical installation.
Good Luck!

 

Your plan is sound. I believe in most cities, the homeowner can do all their own work within their own home. I believe that any ME with the right books and a willingness to study them and ask questions can probably safely and competently do any residential electrical work.

But do what OldGuy says -- call your local building department and ask. Let us know what they say, and let us know what city you are in.

 

10-4.

 

I had an enlightening 10 second discussion with the secretary of the electrical section of the New Orleans City Building Inspector: Q-How do I go about getting a permit and inspection to rewire my home that I own? A- Call a licensed electrician. Q- Any exceptions? A- No. Click. So much for my plans to restore old New Orleans homes for a living. Are there cities out there with old historic homes that will work with you?

 

Thanks, 8888. Very interesting. I guess you'll just have to move out of New Orleans. Call ahead to get the rules.

 

When are city inspection departments going to learn that this is precisely the attitude that causes people to avoid consulting them, and doing the work without permits?

Enforcing the rules is one thing, but why do so many of them seem to take some perverse pleasure in being rude and making you squirm?

 

8888's question is virtually identical to my situation.
I am also interested in doing some small-scale electrical work. I really enjoy this electrical stuff (maybe I'm crazy) - have taken two classes on residential wiring and code at our local junior college, am an avid do-it-yourselfer, a chemical engineer in my "regular" job.
A friend and I want to do small scale home remodeling stuff as a side business with the dream of building it into a real business someday. As we have explored this, I have had several people ask me about doing some electrical work for them.
So...I called our local permit office today (I am in Charlotte, NC). They told me I cannot do any electrical work except for my own home and that is after passing some sort of test they administer to homeowners. I have to be a licensed electrical contractor for any other work. In checking with the state licensing agency, I'm told that to be licensed, I must pass a written test and have several years experience. The lowest amount of experience for a basic license is 2 years as long as i can prove the class time and some other things (otherwise it is a 4 year requirement). The problem is that to get two years experience on a part time basis is a long time out plus i have to find a licensed contractor to let me work under. (I approached an electrical contractor firm in town a year ago and offered to work for free on weekends, etc. he thought i was nuts and basically tossed me out)
I understand that the laws are set up to keep shoddy workmanship out of very critical and potentially dangerous areas like electrical, but it is frustrating to hear people complain about contractors not showing up, etc...and not be allowed to do anything about it...I guess the point is that I am more than willing to comply with all codes, and don't think I am anywhere near the level of incompetency that the laws are intended to protect us from....oh well..
if you're still reading this, thanks..had to complain somewhere...

 

No_Sparks I agree completely. At this point I'd be happy to be able to take a homeowner electrical competancy test and have the opportunity to maintain and upgrade my own property. If you ever take the test give us a review.

 

8888, yep i'll let you know if i take the test...

i had another thought along these same lines...i recently helped a friend install another 220 V breaker, outlet, and wire for a window AC. i double checked my plan here,got some good ideas, installed the stuff - AC works great, my friend is happy and now he thinks i'm an electrical genius. seems like a happy ending...

however, as i found out yesterday, i also apparently violated our building code by not getting a permit and not being licensed. my question though is - if my friend had pulled out his yellow pages, called a licensed electrician over - would that electrician had bothered to get a permit? for some reason i just don't see that happening

 

8888,

You said, "So much for my plans to restore old New Orleans homes for a living." You might call back the building department and start the conversation with "I am a licenced professional (mechanical) engineer" and ask them what qualifications and licences are required in New Orleans to perform . . . If you want to make a living doing this, you should be honest about your intent and qualifications. Then, the building officials may be more polite and informative. Some areas also have very lax qualification requirements for licencing. It might also be possible for you to do some of the work and have a licensed electrician do the more technical/dangerous work (ie service upgrade). Calls to some licensed electricians may be helpful, but they might not think a ME is much of a qualification and would rather talk to a plumber or homeowner.

Phil

 

I am an electrical inspector and an educator. I am also an american that believes in freedom of choice, especially when it comes to your own land and private home. However it is not easy to promote freedom of choice and enforce the electrical code. This electrical industry is packed full of people who don't know they don't know. Many electric projects get done everyday without permits or inspections. On the other hand many homes that burn down, who's home they have been paying insurance on for a long time only to find out that the wiring they performed without permits and inspections and also was not installed within the minimum safety standards is now without insurance coverage due to that small electrical project the did themselves illigally without permits or inspections that did not meet the minimum safety standards.

The county that I am an inspector is promotes freedom of choice. Does not require licensing or testing even for commercial contractors. However the people who perform electrical work must meet the minimum safety standards as per the NEC and obtain a permit and inspection approval, no matter how much they don't know. It is their responsibility to know how to do what the have done. We make great effort to provide formal schooling in this County and to provide ways of helping property owners to do their own work. You just can't learn the NEC in a couple of years of experience but at least you have a start.

My advice to anyone who is unhappy with the rules of the land where they live to find an area that have the rules of the land acceptable to their liking and move their.

Best of luck to all

May all be happy and content

Wg

 

My sympathy to you, 8888. As an added perspective, I live in Upstate NY, in a suburban village near Syracuse. In the city, as with most cities as far as I have heard, you must be a licensed electrician. In Syracuse you must be licensed and also be registered with the city itself to do any electrical work whatsoever within city limits. In my village though, we are permitted to do any electrical work in our own homes providing an inspection is acquired ($15) and an inspection is applied for ($40) and passed. I have nearly 20 years experience in electrical installation, troubleshooting and repair, and a 2 year degree obtained a couple years ago in electrical engineering. (Was never a licenced electrician) Now I work as an industrial electrical designer for an engineering firm. I believe I know what I'm doing. So I got the permit to replace my 60 amp fuse box with a 150 amp modern service, exceeded NEC requirements (working for an engineer will do that to you!), and passed.

I agree with abNORMal that 8888's experience is exactly what influences people to do their own electrical work without bothering with a permit or inspection. It's like prohibition. People won't stop doing it anyway, so the Man might as well allow it and get the fees, taxes and control he loves so much.

Now here's a little twist on getting or not getting a permit and doing things legally: I planned to cut The Man out of my project altogether. ("I don' need no steenking permit!") Went down to Home Depot and bought my 150 amp/30 space Square D panel and began some prep work. First, I needed to replace the old plank backplane that was probably put in in the '20's. I simply opened all the existing boxes and removed all the mounting screws. Everything was live at this point but I'm a careful kinda guy. Suddenly one of the cables entering the fuse box began spitting uncontrollably and stopped after about a minute. Now I'm not going anywhere near there until the power company comes out and cuts me off. And I'm not going to sleep again until I find and correct the problem. The utility came out and gave me a "temporary cut-off for emergency repair", but first they informed me that after I do the repair and they restore power they will give me 10 days to get an inspection. If I don't they will return and cut me off indefinitely until I produce a satisfactory inspection certificate. OK, maybe I do need a steenking permit after all...

Anyway, once the power was off I discovered that the wire that was spitting was a #10/2 romex feed from the main fuse box to a 2-fuse sub-panel WHICH WAS WIRED AHEAD OF THE MAIN FUSES, TERMINATED IN THE MAIN LUGS WITH THE ENTRANCE CABLE! They had stripped the sheath back off the romex beyond the cable-to-box connector, but clamped it down tight anyway, biting into the insulation on the individual hot conductors! All that was required to start a fire was to jiggle that backplane just a little, requiring as little force as possibly a mouse bumping into it in the dark! So I'm lucky I was standing there when it blew and could do something about it.

Now I'm beginning to have a lot more regard for people getting a permit, because obviously from this and other work I have discovered in my old house, there are a lot of people out there, as WG said, that don't know they don't know and figure that if it works at all it must be done correctly.

Well, here's the big confession: With all my experience and an education on top of it, what I do is industrial electrical design, and had little experience with residential Code. I didn't even know 310-15(b)(6) existed when I began my home project, and was about to leave the existing service entrance cable and just throw the box in. I figured that since I have gotten rid of an electric hot water tank and range that was supported by the 60 amp service that I'm pulling down a lot less amps than the service was designed for, and with the prospect of being hassled by the village code enforcement and utility requirements (such as moving my meter from indoors to outdoors AT MY EXPENSE, that I could live with this arrangment. (I feel quite different about this now!)

Bottom line is that once I got the permit and was faced with having to pass an inspection, I figured I better get real familiar with residential Code real quick, and study the utillity's specifications, too. It is amazing that someone in my present field of work could be as ignorant as I was back when I began this project. So it just goes to show you, you don't know you don't know until you're forced to learn sometimes. I'm thankful to this day that those morons who installed that sub-panel did such a dangerous job, because that alone forced me to get the permit and do the job safely and correctly, and have my work checked and approved by someone with a lot more experience than myself.

Sorry about the long-winded reply, but this is a story I felt I needed to share. Good luck to all, and be safe out there.

Juice

 

I've been out of town several days and trying to catch back up..i'm not sure anyone is still following this conversation but wanted to add a follow-up to my previous rantings....basically to simply say i was wrong,
wgoodrich was right when he said "My advice to anyone who is unhappy with the rules of the land where they live to find an area that have the rules of the land acceptable to their liking and move their."
i have not intention of moving from here (i happen to like it and am fortunate to live in a nice area)...and rules are rules...they are there for perfectly good reasons for the most part...when i stop and think about it i'm actually glad our city has these rules in place....gives me a lot more confidence that my house was wired correctly initially.
i'm actually turning down a project from a friend that is pretty easy...because it just ain't right to go around the rules. i'll stick to my own house and keep reading about how to do things here....

 

I am glad you have a more broad outlook on rules. It is true that most people enjoy a life of freedom. Wish everyone had that pleasure in the world. However the more populated the area we living in becomes the more crowded our society becomes. The more affect to others safety is affected by our own actions. One house burns down in a tightly populated city and often two or more catch fire from that first fire. Then the more populated the more likely the neighbors kids are spending time in the neighbors home. Then the more houses the more people tend to buy a home that is a major safety hazard type nightmare because the rules were not followed in belief that person was exersizing their right to freedom of choice.

Seem like the more crowded the area we live in the more rules appear, and the more freedom of choice we tend to have to give up. I suspect this to be a price we are having to pay due to the more crowded conditions our society has become.

If you are trying to do a project, we feel our freedom of choice is being violated. Yet if we buy a nightmare unknowingly when we bought our home we saved 20 years to be able to buy and find this home was built without following the rules, or if our child is found in a neighbors swimming pool after he or she drowned in that pool because that pool did not meet the rules of the minimum safety standards, we feel our government failed to protect us from hazards we as private citizens have no control of being on other peoples private property that are our neighbors or is the house we bought.

Kind of like talking out of both sides of our mouth. We all tend to do it. Sounds like the best rules are the ones everyone but me have to follow.

Sounds like a real fair statement as follows;

Be sure to make everyone follows the rules to the letter, just leave me alone.

Welcome to society and our laws. Seems to be a hard act to balance when we are talking about the rules of society.

Good Luck to all, and try to be understanding in the crowded world we live in, nothing like the years of yesterday.

Wg

 

Wow, I go on vaca. for a week and this thread exploded. Much good information, it is helpful to see how this issue is handled in other areas as well as pro's perspective. A little more info. I went to Nashville for a week and talked to their building inspector. He said that anyone with a clear concept and drawing can get a building permit, do the work themselves and get inspected. Fot an electrical permit you must go in front of the "Electrical Permitting" board w/ concept and plans and convince this group that you are deserving of a permit/inspection. They meet on the 4th and 5th of every month.

I have not given up on New Orleans and am investigating other avenues for permitting and inspection of work within the law. Similar to the "change your approach suggestion earlier in this thread".

 

8888, that's good info. maybe nashville is where i need to move....i like their approach...in my ideal world all cities would do it like that...but, my city does not. oh well...i have to get over it.....

 

One solution that everyone seems to have missed: You could always put your day job on hold for awhile and pursue your electrician's license! ...Just a thought.

Juice

 

JuiceHead - oh man you're killing me....that is a topic that i have debated and debated (with myself mainly). i have thought very seriously about doing just that, and this whole topic has got me to thinking about it again. one problem is that i'm a textbook case of having golden handcuffs..taking a job as an apprentice would be a major cut in pay, etc. of course that is not necessarily a good excuse...i either need to make the leap or quit whining about it, and of course it's much easier to whine and complain

 

I have known of people who have passed the Block Masters test without ever being on the job site. Evening classes for adults are available throughout the world teaching the NEC. Also the site that is found below will put you a long ways toward passing an electrical test, even the Journeyman's Master's test from Block that is Nationally recognized. Formats in demand load calculations, formats in voltage drop, formats in motor load design etc. are available all over the net even for free.

Take the time to read, learn, ask questions, and practice the formats. If you apply yourself you can shortly pass any test dealt to you pertaining to electrical as long as that test is a bonifide test, and not a test written by people who don't really know the answers to their own questions. Those type electrical tests do exist.

If you start reading and studying, I think that you will soon learn to respect the knowledge of an engineer, master electrician, or nationally certified inspector.

Go for broke and apply yourself, you can do it.

Wg

 

Wgoodrich - You raise some very interesting points. I am fortunate to have a very good community college system in my city and have taken two courses they offer on residential wiring. These were taught by a very qualified person and he taught me a lot about the NEC and good practical knowledge. The next step is probably to take their courses that are specific to the NEC and are designed to help people pass the state licensing tests. The problem, if I understand it correctly, is that I am not allowed to take the state licensing tests without fulfilling the experience requirements - this is where I get stuck.
I am dying to learn more - for some reason this stuff just fascinates me. I wish there was a way for me to do a few small jobs for others in a way that was monitored, supervised, reviewed, or whatever necessary that insured everyone was safe and codes were adhered to. This would allow me to learn more, help a few folks, and hopefully gain some invaluable experience along the way. You may have seen one of my earlier posts where I offered to work for a local electrical contractor for free in order to learn more...He tossed me out. However, I'm still hopeful that maybe there is still a way somehow...if you or anyone elese has any ideas, I'd love to hear them.

 

I raised the issue of becoming licensed out of a near experience in a former life. I was once a maintenance crew chief for a residential property management company, responsible for servicing of not only electrical systems, but plumbing, carpentry, major appliances, painting & drywall, etc. Electrical happened to be my favorite trade. During an electrical upgrade to a 250 unit complex, for which my company hired a major electrical contractor, I got to know their Journeyman crew chief very well, as I was the coordinator for this project. He was impressed by my electrical knowledge and suggested that I consider pursuing my license. And I considered it. But first I would be required to complete a 2 year apprenticeship. I made more money than an apprentice, and I saw those guys on the project every day digging ditches, pouring concrete and fetching spools of wire for the journeymen, and not really learning a whole lot of electrical skills. I didn't see this as a logical move for me. The kicker is that I would have been making double my salary at the end of those two years, and more than I presently make despite over 10 years having gone by.

I was never licensed but continued over the years to do a lot of electrical troubleshooting, repair and installation and have way more experience than a lot of younger licensed electricians. I subsequently completed a two year degree in electrical engineering and in recent years have attended numerous NFPA conferences and seminars on the 1999 Code. I presently work as an electrical designer for a prominent engineering firm and feel like I've finally found my career, so it's doubtful at this stage that I will ever obtain my license. But as long as my village continues to allow homeowners to do their own electrical work, with permit & inspection, I will always be able to take care of my own place with safety and confidence.

...My 2 cents, for what it's worth.

Juice

 

There are areas that offer the Block test from Florida that also accept formal schooling in place of experience. Also some area do not require any appreticeship to take the test. Some research in other locations in you area may produce a jurisdiction that will accept this testing without field experience or formal schooling. Don't give up research different localities. Once you pass the test and are in Block's computor records then you will have what you seek.

Good Luck

Wg

 

Hi 8888;
Have you thought of the possibility of working with a contractor in the Big Easy ? Maybe a small deal where the project is done under their license but you do the work. Sweetheart deal for them as they get a small fee, do the guidance, but you do the work, subject to their approval. It is after all their license. May take some shopping for someone to agree to, but sometimes if you intend to do other projects on a ongoing basis, they will agree. Confer with some plumbers, building suppliers, renovators, etc. Who knows, anything is possible in the Big Easy!

 

Bob, sounds like you have been here before. Yes I am currently trying to set-up sed arrangement..Thks!

 

8888;
Another possible source for you maybe looking for a retired electrican who wants to keep busy. In the NY area where I live there are several cooperatives that have retired people who are, nor ready, for the dirt nap and rocking chair who want to keep busy on a part time basis. You have the benefit of their expertise and they will gleefully help for a reduced price. Even more gleefully if a certain payment ( not able to discuss here ) arraignments are made with them. Look in local papers, akin to a pennysaver, even inquire to the local Better Business Bureau ( if there is on down there). Sometimes even a off the record talk with the electrical inspector may steer you towards a reputable retired person. However, whoever you get check their credentials carefully. Do background checks on them. Almost got burnt (literally!) by being lax in my vigilance on one person because of a reccommendation that was made and taken on faith.
as I stated before sometimes a local supply store, plumber, etc. will know of a retired person, with whom they have dealt with over the years, who is looking for some work and additional money.
Post here and let us know how you made out. Interested as friends were considering the same thing as you are doing.

 

8888;
Another possible source for you maybe looking for a retired electrican who wants to keep busy. In the NY area where I live there are several cooperatives that have retired people who are, nor ready, for the dirt nap and rocking chair who want to keep busy on a part time basis. You have the benefit of their expertise and they will gleefully help for a reduced price. Even more gleefully if a certain payment ( not able to discuss here ) arraignments are made with them. Look in local papers, akin to a pennysaver, even inquire to the local Better Business Bureau ( if there is on down there). Sometimes even a off the record talk with the electrical inspector may steer you towards a reputable retired person. However, whoever you get check their credentials carefully. Do background checks on them. Almost got burnt (literally!) by being lax in my vigilance on one person because of a reccommendation that was made and taken on faith.
as I stated before sometimes a local supply store, plumber, etc. will know of a retired person, with whom they have dealt with over the years, who is looking for some work and additional money.
Post here and let us know how you made out. Interested, as friends were considering the same thing as you are doing.

 

Wg, This is interesting news. Of course, I know of a small county in my State which is very liberal in it's permit requirements. I done a Mobile Home complete electrical restoration for a friend about a year ago. All that was required that he go and apply for a permit, pay a fee, and arrange for the Electrical Inspection. The permit was in his name, but I (unlicensed me) was doing the work - and all of this was made clear to the Bldg. Authority beforehand. They said 'This is fine'. So, we said fine. I done the rough-in, called for the Inspector, he came out and passed everything as being up to code. I was so elated - my first complete wiring job. Of course, it was completely new construction, because we had torn out all the inside of the trailer, and rebuilt everything. AND, I did a whole lot of book study prior to this and I wholeheartedly believe that everything was installed safe and within the Code.

Well, my question is this: I live in INDIANA. Are you familiar at all with Indiana's Licensing/permit requirements? I mentioned the small county, but I live in a much larger county, and am wondering if requirements would be different. Well, I'm sure they would be, but thought you may have some knowledge of this.

I know I have a way to go before being able to do anything in the way of passing a test, but I wonder if INDIANA offers the same as what you stated in the quotes above? that being: formal education in the place of aprenticeship experience. I am 44 years old, and I suspect that at that age, my employment possibilities with any contractor would be severely limited. Although I have often thought of doing the exact same thing that
No_Sparks attempted when he "approached an electrical contractor firm in town a year ago and offered to work for free on weekends, etc." The thought that he (-Sparks) was nuts, was in itself, in my opinion, NUTS.

I would appreciate your response to this. And again, this is the greatest site that I have thus far ran across. I hope it doesn't go away.

-Terry

 

Here where I live, the rule is " as long as you,yourself live in the house you can pull a homeowner permit but if you do not live daily in that residents, forget it, no rentals, no commerical. Oh you must own the house too."

But he says he will look through a fine tooth comb at your work.

so I studies taunton book, muller book, all the books at lowes, I ask question here and to electrians. I was ready. I thought I was better than alot of trade people.

All he look at was the color of the wire nuts.

I,m ready to call his boss and tell em " damn, I want you to look at everything, give me hell, I,m ready. Its my house, I do not want it to burn.

He nevered look at the subpanels, outside box, 2/0 wire, heating circuit just those damn green wirenuts.

 

Terry, Indiana does not have a state licensing. Most counties and towns do recognize someone who has passed a Block & Assoc. Masters test. It is called recipricating. Not all jurisdictions recipricate other testing agencies.

Most licensing is done per county or town. Some Counties and Town in Indiana requires no testing or licensing and some require a locally written electrical test in their jurisdiction. Some Counties or Towns require you to pass the Masters test out of Florida.

If you can tell me the County and City you wish to work in I may know the inspector and provide you a contact number to find your local requirments.

Wg

 

Brownbagg, It's the same here in Michigan, a home owner can pull a homeowners permit that covers everything thats being done in that house but, he or she cannot pull a trades permit.

It is frustrating after doing all that work and they only inspect one or two things. I always make them look at everything i've done. If it's on the inspection sheet I want them to look at it. Even though i know the majority of the inspectors every so often I run into a new one that wants to cut corners.


8888, Like Bob M was saying find yourself a retired electrican you can work with who still does light jobs on the side. This way you get your feet wet. That was one of the route I early on.



Fred

 

Wg,

Vanderburgh, Warrick, and Posey Co., IN

I live in the City of Evansville, Vanderburgh Co.

Thanks,

-Terry

 

Evensville requires a Block and Assoc. masters test with five years experience if my memory serves me right. Outside that jurisdiction will have a different set of requirments. Some areas in surrounding Counties require no licensing at all.

Call you Code enforcement office or County Commissioner's Office to clarify requirements in smaller communities that have their own jurisdiction that is listed and approved by the State by Ordinance.

Hope this helps

Wg

 

The rules in my city in Texas are, 1 you must own the home, 2. you must have the home homesteaded, 3. you and only you can do the work. 4 you must pass a verbal quiz given by the inspector to see if you know enough about what you are doing to not get yourself or anyone else injured or put in harms way.

So I made a plan out on the computer of my rewiring job took it to the elec inspector(he was a horses patut), he quized me, was rude, and very short, but in the end I satisfied him that I knew enough and then he said to "get to it".

I wouldn't talk to the secretary, I'd talk straight to the inspector. I was told first that I couldn't do any work on my house, then when I went up to the inspectors office, he said it was fine and all I had to do was pull a permit($15).

Kenny

 

In Chicago as long as you have a electrical engineering degree you can go and take the licenced electrician test. No prior experience needed. They don't "advertise" it, you have to ask them specificially if there's another way to became a licenced electrician. Otherwise you have to show some experience, I believe it's 4 years. That's another avenue to pursue...

 

Thanks for all the replies. I done some searching on my own and found the Regulations for my county. They are pretty detailed and aside from the licensed contractor, they basically allow only homeowners, and their immediate families members to get permits. Well, safety has to be of utmost concern. Perhaps hands on knowledge truly takes a back seat to nothing less. After all, I'd hate to have the Dr. have to take out his text book while doing surgery on me.

Special thanks to Wg for his help. The relevant code that I found was at

http://www.vanderburgh.org/auditor/c...e15/15.36.html

 

Glad you found what you were seeking

Wg