Circuit Breaker Types

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  #1  
Old 09-20-01, 02:17 AM
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I am trying to find out if I can use Murray circuit breakers in a Seimans Box. The Murray breakers have the Seimans name on them and are the exact same physically. But the original Seimans breakers say Type QP, and the Murray breakers say Type MP-T. Does anyone know if these are interchangable?
Thank you,
John.
 
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  #2  
Old 09-20-01, 02:37 AM
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Just curious, but is there some reason you don't just use Siemens breakers?
 
  #3  
Old 09-20-01, 06:01 AM
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I was given the Murray breakers and told they were the same but now am questioning that information.
 
  #4  
Old 09-20-01, 11:27 AM
Wgoodrich
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The NEC requires that any breaker used in a panel must be listed and labled for use with that panel. As far as I know Murray breakers are not listed for use with Siemans panels.

Check with the manufacture being specific with the model number of the panel and the model number of the breaker.

As far as I know a Murray breaker is not approved to be used with a Sieman's panel.

Wg
 
  #5  
Old 09-21-01, 05:25 AM
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Thank you for the reply, I think I will try to exchange the Murray breakers to be safe.
John.
 
  #6  
Old 09-21-01, 07:40 AM
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Home Depot carries Siemens breakers. I believe that Lowe's does not.
 
  #7  
Old 09-22-01, 01:24 PM
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Personally, I carry T&B's listed for 8 panels, one of which of course is T&B , for service calls.
Murray as I understand it, despite NRTL listings maintains they are the sole breaker to be used in their panels.

Manufacturer's turf is pertinent to the original Q also
 
  #8  
Old 09-23-01, 05:54 AM
resqcapt19
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wirenuts,
Only breakers manufactured by the panel manufacture are "listed" for use in that panel. UL has evaluated and "classified" breakers by other manufactures for use in listed panels without violating the listing. The T&B breakers are "classified" for use in the 8 panels, they are not listed.
If the Murray breaker was classified for use in the Siemens panel it would have a list on the breaker or the breaker packaging that would name all of the panels that it is classified for use in. If it doesn't have this list it is a "listed" breaker and can only be used in Murray panels.
Don(resqcapt19)
 
  #9  
Old 09-23-01, 10:56 AM
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UL has evaluated and "classified" breakers by other manufactures for use in listed panels without violating the listing. The T&B breakers are "classified" for use in the 8 panels, they are not listed.

Don,
an excellent example of the corporate influence that is the true undertow in most orginizations that laude themselves as a safety pillar for the public.
UL E162469 is used to market these T&B's as something that is not listed, but violates no listing for Westinghouse, Bryant,Challenger, Sylaviania, Murray , Siemens, GE , as of course T&B.
Naturally, the only company that will allow in thier listing IS T&B , why would other makes relenquish turf?
 
  #10  
Old 09-25-01, 08:47 AM
Bazooka227
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Murray is now owned by Siemens.
 
  #11  
Old 09-25-01, 09:25 AM
resqcapt19
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Bazooka227,
The owenership of the company is not a factor. The breaker must be either listed or classified for use in the panel. Just because it is made by the same manufacturer does not mean it is suitable for use in that panel.
Don(resqcapt19)
 
  #12  
Old 09-25-01, 01:44 PM
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I am curious here as to classification vs. listing. I see to be getting little response from here;

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/t...RAME/index.htm
 
  #13  
Old 09-25-01, 03:45 PM
resqcapt19
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wirenuts,
Do you have a copy of the UL white book? It has the information in it. In general the breakers made by the manufacturer of the panel are "listed" for use in that panel. Breakers made by other manufacturers and found suitable for use in the panel are "classified" for use in that panel. The evaluation methods used by UL are the same for listed and classified.
Don(resqcapt19)
 
  #14  
Old 09-25-01, 03:53 PM
resqcapt19
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wirenuts,
On the UL page you linked to, do a search for " UL Category Control Number (CCN)/Guide Information".
Use DIVQ for listed breakers and DIXF for classified breakers.
Don(resqcapt19)
 
  #15  
Old 09-25-01, 11:23 PM
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Don, no I do not have a white book, i just call or e-mail the state inspectors for clarification.

Thank you for the link, here i found related info. There does not seem to be a world of difference here in Classified vs. Listing. I don't believe I am in violation with my T&B's




A circuit breaker that is Classified only is marked on the side with the statement:

"Classified for use only in specified panelboards where the available short-circuit current is 10 kA, 120/240 volts ac or less. Do not use in equipment connected to circuits having an available system short-circuit current in excess of 10 kA, 120/240 volts ac. For catalog numbers (or equivalent) of specified panelboards, refer to Publication No. _____________ provided with this circuit breaker. If additional information is necessary, contact _____________ (Classified circuit breaker manufacturer's name)" .

A circuit breaker that is both Classified and Listed is marked on the side with the statement:

"This circuit breaker is Listed for use in circuit breaker enclosures and panelboards intended and marked for its use. This circuit breaker is Classified for use, where the available short-circuit current is 10 kA, 120/240 V ac or less, in the compatible panelboards shown in Publication No. _____________ _____________ _____________ provided with this circuit breaker. When used as a Classified circuit breaker, do not use in equipment connected to circuits having an available system short-circuit current in excess of 10 kA, 120/240 V ac. If additional information is necessary, contact _____________ _____________ _____________ _____________ (Classified circuit breaker manufacturer's name)" .

 
  #16  
Old 09-26-01, 07:30 AM
Wgoodrich
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Wirenuts, I suggest that you email or call the manufucturer of your panel and ask if the T&B breaker is approved for use with that panel. I suspect that you will find the manufacturer will side with resqcapt19 and tell you that those T&B breaker is not approved for use because the may be Classified but I suspect you will find they are not listed for use in that panel.

Wg
 
  #17  
Old 09-26-01, 09:33 AM
resqcapt19
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WG,
I believe that it is UL's intent that a classified breaker can be legally used in any panel that it is classified for no mater what the manufacturer of the panel says. The manufacturer's instructions that say only to use their breakers are not listing and labeling instructions that are referred to in 110-3(b). I know that a number of code "experts" do not share my opinion on this subject. However, I don't know of any panel manufacturer will permit the use of competitive brands of breakers in the instructions that are provided with the panel. If the panel makers instructions must be followed, where could you ever use "classified" breakers?
Don(resqcapt19)
 
  #18  
Old 09-26-01, 10:59 AM
Wgoodrich
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resqcapt19, I think we are saying the same thing. The panel manufacturer should be able to tell a customer if a breaker is listed for use in that panel. I did not mean by the manufacturer of the panel but by the manufacturer of the breaker listing for use in their panel. If the breaker is classified by UL as having passed a test for use in that panel. The manufacturer of both the breaker and the panel is supposed to be notified that this breaker passed a testing lab requirement for use in that panel. Then the breaker is supposed to be listed and a label either on the box or breaker manufacturer instruction sheet labeling that breaker for use in that brand panel. The panel manufacturer should know what breakers have been labeled for use in their panel. I was just suggesting that Wirenuts contact the panel manufacturer. I agree they may not be to hip on telling that a competitve breaker is allwed. If doubt that Wirenuts can get the truth of labeling for use in their panel, then he can also contact the maunfacturer of the breaker and get the same listing and labeling info.

My intent was not to say the panel manufacturer must approve the use of a different brand breaker in their certain panel. Just that they are supposed to be notified as to what breakers have been tested, approved, listed, classified and labeled for use with their certain panels. Without that notification to that panel manufacturer provided by both the testing lab and the breaker manufacturer, the warranty would be in question if a different brand breaker is used in their panel without that notification. Receipt of that notification should be on file by the breaker manufacturer and that testing labratory for their liability protection also. If Wirenuts can get the panel manufacturer to state that different brand breaker is allowed to be used in that panel, that confirmation would be hard to advocate against by someone else. If the manufacturer of the breaker confirms approved use of that breaker in a different brand panel the cloud of doubt would still exist as unacceptable proof.

Also I believe that there is a link available for the UL white book to be connected to on the NET with search capabilities. If I remember right Officials or AHJs have a better access to that white book on the net for search capabilities but the normal Joe should be able to surf the info there also as to what breaker has been listed and labeled for use in a certain panel.

I will look to see if I can find the link to the White book of UL on the NET. If I can find it I will post it on this posted question.

One thing we need to keep in mind is that there are several testing labratories out there now other than Underwriter's Lab. This is causing communication confusion in the industry. One testing lab may have tested a certain product and approved the testing but a second lab may never have tested that same product. Getting hard to keep up with concerning certified labs in the industry.

Wg
 
  #19  
Old 09-26-01, 01:18 PM
resqcapt19
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WG,
The warranty is in question when a classified breaker is used. The panel manufacturer has the right to void the warranty if a classified breaker is used. They only have to warranty their own products. The use of classified breakers is permitted by the code, but is not accepted by many panel manufacturers. Most panel manufacturers have statements in their documentation that state that the warranty is void if third party breakers are used.
Panel makers have no obligation to list in their instructions the breakers that have been classifed for use in their panel. The classifed breaker manufacturer is to provide a list of panels that the classifed breaker can be used in. This list of panels is to be provided with the classified breaker.
Don(resqcapt19)
 
  #20  
Old 09-26-01, 01:36 PM
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I did not know most of this, but i am slowly digesting the info.....thanx
 
  #21  
Old 09-26-01, 01:38 PM
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would 'classified' sort of be related to 'listed as an assembly' ????
 
  #22  
Old 09-27-01, 12:08 AM
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Ul response to IAEI BB member;

Using a Classified circuit breaker in another manufacturers panelboard does
not void the Listing on the panelboard, provided the specific panelboard is
identified on the compatibility List provided with the UL Classified
circuit breaker. The Classification of the circuit breaker for use in the
Listed panelboard is basically an addendum to the Listing of the
panelboard. The combination of the two were evaluated by UL and the
circuit breaker Classified for use in the Listed panelboard. Therefore,
because the circuit breaker is Classified for use in the Listed panelboard
and is so identified, both comply with NEC Section 110-3(b), and no
Listings or Classifications are voided."

 
  #23  
Old 09-27-01, 04:21 AM
resqcapt19
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wirenuts,
Use of classifed breakers in listed panels does not void the panel's listing, but listing a warranty have nothing to do with each other and the used of classified breakers may very well void the panel's warranty.
Don(resqcapt19)
 
  #24  
Old 09-27-01, 07:21 AM
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Don,
The legalities and liabilities here are confusing. They appear to be rooted more in turf than as a function of safety or consumer protection. I am interested here in my own liability as a contractor. It would seem i am covered, except in where i would be challenging a panel's warranty, which i have yet to do.
 
  #25  
Old 09-27-01, 10:12 AM
Wgoodrich
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Wirenuts and resqcapt19, this discussion is why I jumped in a second and third time. Wirenuts, you are no more confused than most electrical contractors and inspectors in the industry. I have researched this a brought this subject up at conventions just to see the run around by all concerned to the point that it was ensured that all were confused again. Sounded like politician in reputation.

I have talked in depth with testing labs they say they did their jobs, The breakers were tested and a list of breakers are available providing which breaker is allowed with which panel other than the manufacturer of the panel breakers.

Then I talked to manufacturers in depth. Their response was in our panels your breakers will be our breakers or the warranty is voided. When asked if the breakers of other manufacturers were allowed in their own brand of panels. There response was not in our panels unless they are our breakers.

I talked to several other electrical instructors and they speak in unison with resqcapt19 in his replies.

My official interpretation is UL says yes, NEC says yes if you have proof in writing that your certain breaker is allowed in that certain panel. If you land in a Court of law due to a liability claim. The manufacturer will most likely testify that you voided their warranty. The testing labs and NEC experts will provide a listing and labeling as a method of answering whether your installation met NEC requirements. The AHJ will commonly side with the experts and testing labs. The judge or jury that you will have to rely for an answer whether you loose due to liability will by that time have a very clear look of total confusion on their face.

Your risk, your move, up to you to make the decision as long as you get an AHJ to sign off on the project and mention the different brand breakers installed in the panel in his opinion is approved you should be ok. Doubt you get that in writing from an AHJ though.

I have seen this way out confusing situation in the industry concerning this subject for years.

Good Luck

Wg
 
  #26  
Old 09-27-01, 11:47 AM
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Well i simply had no ideaof the depth of the beuracracy involved here, i guess there is some consolance to knowing i'm not alone, so i thank you both.

In a related incident, I had to change out a milbank bolt-in main breker in a meter/ main combo. I had called tech support to verify the cat# would fit, they said no prob and then went on with all this gibberish ( to me) about how i could,nt do it.
This is thier breaker listed & classified etc,etc, in thier equipment.
The end result was that i had a few bolts to deal with that a child could have figured out, but they had made it quite clear to me that i was on my own in doing so.

Sometimes it's mighty hard to play by ALL the rules...

 
  #27  
Old 09-28-01, 08:05 AM
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Guys:

Understanding that contractors have a greater responsibility/liability with respect to the Listed and Classified issue, I would have no problem putting the Murray breakers in the Siemans panel for my own use. In fact, I've done it.

I think Wirenuts comes closest to the heart of the issue with the comment about it being more about turf than anything else.

Bazooka mentioned that Siemans bought Murray.
Want to bet that those previously fuzzy rules about what's approved for what will disappear, now that the money's all going to the same place?

Consider this:

Look at these two breakers side by side. There is NO appreciable difference from one to the other. They are both UL rated. They are both adequate to do the job they were designed to do. If they are both not flawed, they are equally as safe.

Look at a Siemens and Murray panel side by side. Any appreciable difference here? No, same as the breakers.

So, given that neither of these components has a flaw, how can two approved, virtually identical components become inadequate for the job when used in conjunction? Does the breaker operate differently because it's in a different brand panel (with an identical bus)?

As for warranty, how often does a panel fail due to a condition covered by warranty? Virtually never. It's usually due to an installation flaw.
What is the reimbursement for a failed panel? A new panel? Whoopdedoo. A whole $60 bucks (on an $800 job).





 
  #28  
Old 09-28-01, 08:21 AM
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It is frustrating , i have surfed up a storm on this, mostly techno-legal jargon that is hard to descipher. I do not make the rules, but it behooves the average contractor like me to at least investigate these matters....
 
  #29  
Old 09-28-01, 08:46 AM
Wgoodrich
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I understand what abnormal is saying, I too get frustrated with having the people in the field having to cheat to do what they think is right regardless of minimum safety standards.

However there are differences in panels buss bars. Some are thicker causing an odd breaker to have to expand more than originally designed inviting a loose connection. There are diffent butt connections for different brand panels making some breaker not able to reach or properly mount to the but of the breaker and the mounting butt of the panel.

Then we have the sales pitch concerning copper buss in some panels creating a different metal allow mix than the odd name breakers were designed to accept possibly causing corrosion reaction etc.

There are more differences that should be addressed in your decision to use non approved breakers for that odd named panel.

The bottom line is you are putting yourself in a position to be a nonapproved self made testing labrotory when you take it upon yourself to approve and install a product without the backing of approved testing labs and NEC minimum safety standards. If you do this especially without an approval from the AHJ in writing you are accepting any and all liability involved. [be sure if you get in big trouble the AHJ can easily forget he verbally approved a situation leaving you as the scape goat burning your pocket book and saving his job]

Be sure of what chances your decisions are forcing you to accept as per liablility of not having the AHJ in writing, the NEC backing what you did, or a testing lab report listing and labeling what you did as approved. If you are wrong and that loose connection is not notice in that panel and if that combustable material catches fire and burns down the house possible injuring or causing death of the occupants you will have to live with the responsibilit without any money left that you worked your entire life to make and save.

Your choice, just don't get to brave and keep in consideration what you are gambling, be sure of what decisions you have made to do and live with the consequences.

Courts are full of those who disregarded minimum safety standards, laws, etc. and did something on their own decisions regardless.

I know how you feel, been there done that too. Frustrating especially on subjects like this thread.

Sound risky to me though,

Be careful

Wg
 
  #30  
Old 09-29-01, 03:14 AM
s1nuber
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The new Murray breakers manufactured by Siemens are not the same as the old Murray breakers manufactured by Murray. The new Murray is just a Siemens with a Murray label on it. A new Murray breaker will not properly fit into an old Murray panel. This is an important distinction. As time goes on, more and more panels are becoming obsolete, with breakers and components harder to find.

I think that Wirenuts solution is perfectly legal and proper. The T&B line effectively reduces the operating cost of a van to go on service calls. That is a huge benefit, to say nothing of the saved space on the van.

I do think that Don brings up a good point in regards to the warranty of the panel. I would not install a T&B breaker in a non T&B panel that was still under warranty, and definitely not a panel that was just installed. The problem now becomes determining if the panel is still under warranty.

I would also have to fully agree with WG about breakers fitting into a panel. An ITE/Siemens will fit in a GE full size, but it will eventually fail. This is not a technical legality, or bureaucratic hopscotch, but a real world electrical hazard. Use caution, fellow sparky's, or the lawyers will get you.

Enjoy your day!
 
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