knob & tube w/a fuse panel


Old 02-25-02, 09:31 PM
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Question knob & tube w/a fuse panel

if this question just revisits a previous topic, my apologies.
feel free to answer or point me to previous threads.
just bought a house: built in 1917(ish), looks to have knob & tube throughout (except the kitchen which was updated at some time, newer braided romex type wire and grounded 3-pronged outlets). the panel in the basement looks new and clean but of course it's of fuse, not a circuit breaker type.
i need to deal w/three things
1.replace fuse box w/what kind of circuit panel (200amps) but how many individual circuits of what amperage, etc (this should be done by licensed electrician, correct?)
2.plan to replace (k&t w/coded wiring) as we go along and add circuits as necessary
3.plan to do this myself - could someone recommend relevant books on building and electrical codes
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Old 02-26-02, 12:07 AM
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Similar situation here. I'm not an expert but I'll take a stab at some answers. If I'm wrong, someone will correct me.

1) 200A is not much more $$ to have installed than 100A, even though 200A is overkill for most houses (do you have electrical heating & cooking?). An electrician should install the new panel and connect to the street. The rest can be done by a safe, informed DIYer. Get a book ( see below) to help you design circuits and figure required amperage.

2) Replacing circuits as you go -- that's what I'm doing. I left the old fuse subpanel where it is and I'm moving rooms over to the new breaker panel as I rewire. Minimizes downtime of the outlets & lights in a room, which is important if you can only do wiring work on the weekends like me.

3) Home Depot or equivalent has a big selection of DIY books. I have Sunset Complete Home Wiring and I like it. You'll need access to the NEC, and whatever amendments your local building department has approved. Which brings me to the bonus answer:

4) Get an electrical permit for this work. Your inspector will give you free advice (ask nicely). Your insurance company won't be so quick to cancel policy if the house burns down due to wiring. You won't make any major code violations, as the inspection should catch any. There won't be any issue when you go to sell the house (yes they pull all permits).

If you want to make the inspection go very smoothly (in case he/she hates dealing with DIYers), do a neater, more professional-looking job than you think an electrician might do. It's your house after all.

Good luck
-- Jim
Old 02-26-02, 04:31 PM
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Sketchy gave you a pretty good shot at some info for you. You might want to read the following links One is wiring a dwelling. While it says new the Codes apply to anything you change from original wiring other than minor repairs of a circuit like wire nuts or change a fixture type work. Be sure to confirm with your AHJ [electrical inspector] as to what he rules is existing and what has to be changed in your home. Once you get to the following link you need to look to the left column and click show entire article to see the entire article as a chaper of a book.

Then you can check out the following link that should be close to what your AHJ will rule as to what is existing. Remember he has the last call on that ruling. Read the following article to get a feel as to what existing is then talk over what he thinks as the AHJ. At least then you will show that you are informed on the subject and not just a newey.

Then if you want to know what all is involved in your service upgrade and at least be informed on that subject try the following link.

There is much more to read on our home wiring site including pictures and drawings on how to subjects concerning wiring. Just click on our electronic signature to get to our main page.

Once you have read to your hearts content then come back in to DIY and ask any specific questions you may need help with.

Hope this helps

Old 02-26-02, 05:24 PM
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I recommend you get some licensed electrical contractors to bid on the work. Sounds like some pretty extensive electrical work. Get 3 or 4 bids to get an idea of the cost. Post back and let us know how it turned out.
Old 02-26-02, 07:25 PM
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thanks for the responses, i'll have some people look and bid probably some time the first of next week, we'll let you know how it starts, progresses, and hopefully turns out (friday i'm going to the local permit shop to clarify costs and paperwork needed on that end)
Old 03-03-02, 11:41 AM
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same topic, new question
what i have now: 1 100amp 8 circuit fuse panel (two circuits have two wires coming off them!), new wiring coming off panel going to: 1) basement area and kitchen on 1st floor, and 2) connecting to knob and tube going up the rest of the house.
before the permit ($40.00), i need to make up plans & materials list for the project. i question i forgot to ask there was the placement of existing outlets, they are nowhere near code (6 feet by doorway, every twelve feet thereafter), some rooms have one, two, maybe three outlets. i do not plan to tear down to the studs (unless condition of the wall requires repair or replacement), if i rewire the existing fixtures, i'll be left w/the same, less than code, number of outlets/switches, or do i need to add, at this time, additional outlets in some rooms to make sure they are no more than 6 feet from the entryway, every twelve feet thereafter?
Old 03-03-02, 12:19 PM
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You might want to check this with your local authority as some jurisdictions insist on complete rewire up to code and others only consider it when renovations are taking place. If the walls are not opened then they may say you don't have to bring the house completely up to current code. It seems to be different in each area on how they interpet the rewire.
Old 02-16-03, 01:18 PM
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new sub-subject

progress as of now: 1 new service panel installed in basement; the entire 1st floor is rewired on the outlet level (1st floor overhead lights still need to be done), i now need to carry 15 wires to the attic, 7 15 amp/14 guage wires, and 8 20 amp, 12 guage wires, what is the minimum diameter of conduit to carry it up from the basement?, i'm not sure i can fit one single pipe up, but may have to break it up to two pips, also, the existing wiring runs up on the outside of the furnace chimney, it is ok, to run up the new wiring, in conduit, on the outside of the chimney?
Old 02-16-03, 01:45 PM
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A few things. You cant just install a 200 amp service. you need to call your electrical utility and get a cost estimate from them to run new wires (most likey you only have 60 or 100amp wires to your house). Some charge, some do not. Depending on your area it could be underground or overhead. if its underground, several utilties will run 200 amp wire regarless if you install a 100 amp or 200 amp service. Most areas the utilities only install the necesary transformers and incomming wires. Your licensed electrician would need to install the meter and panel. Most areas require a permit form a licensed electrician to do this. I wouldnt tackle this part of it unless you are qualified to to it.
The NEC code is somewhat complex reading for many DIYers, and remember it is a minimum requirement only, not a design guide.
Old 02-16-03, 06:28 PM
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100 amp service installed last year, last post on 02/16/03 regarded counduit size (progress as of now...)
Old 02-16-03, 06:35 PM
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i just reread my question, it didn't seem clear;i will be pushing up 6 ft lengths of conduit, connecting as needed, to be considered 'one pipe', what would be the diameter for one 'pipe', two pipes, three pipes, carrying how many of what guage wire [(7) 14 guage, (8) 12 guage)]
Old 02-16-03, 08:34 PM
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Are you talking about using single wire or sleeving romex?
Old 02-16-03, 10:01 PM
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single wire, no romex, change of above numbers, 9 single 14 amp wires, 10 single 12 amp wires
Old 02-16-03, 10:20 PM
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If you have more than 3 current carrying conductors in a raceway,you will have to derate the ampacity of the wire as follows from table 310.15(B)(2)(a) of the 2002 NEC

4-6 =80%
Old 02-16-03, 10:30 PM
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why no romex? wouldn't this be easier. sounds to me like you will be doing lots of extra work putting these homeruns in in pipe?
Old 02-16-03, 11:51 PM
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i got the 2002 nec, but these questions are for where in the heck in there the answer is, as to the second question, i'm from the school that you'll never nail or cut easily into conduit/braided hose, whereas romex, well, it is easier to install..
Old 02-16-03, 11:53 PM
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i dont think ill put more than 6-7 wires (2 circuits) into each pipe, will that be sufficient for 3/4" tubing?, i got the 2002 nec, but these questions are for where in the heck in there the answer is, as to the second question, i'm from the school that you'll never nail or cut easily into conduit/braided hose, whereas romex, well, it is easier to install..
Old 02-17-03, 06:30 AM
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Although theoretically derating comes into play with the fourth wire, it has no practical effect for #12 and #14 wires until the 10th conductor. That is because these smaller wires are restricted by other codes to no more than 20 amps and 15 amps respectively anyway. So with up to 9 current-carrying conductors (don't count grounding wires) in one conduit, #12 is still good for 20 amps and #14 is still good for 15 amps.

Consult appendix C for how many wires of each type and size you can put into conduit of each type and size. This is for conduit fill, and has nothing to do with ampacity derating.
Old 02-24-03, 09:04 AM
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gosh, that was fun, finally settled on 2 circuits (1-20amp, 1-15amp) in each of three (id) braided steel flexible-metal-tubes, running from the basement circuit panel, up the outside of the chimney to the unfinished attic, with only making one noticeable access hole in any of the finished walls (in the kitchen that one day will be redone anyway), the total run from the panel to the attic was approx 50 ft, i broke that into two 25 ft sections, 1 running "over" to the chimney, 1 running "up" to the attic, they "meet" in the basement by said same chimney, the box where they are spliced together is mounted near the chimney
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