gfci breaker in sub panel
#1
I am installing a gfci breaker in a sub-panel. Where does the white pigtail attach? I read somewhere that on a subpanel the nuetral and ground should be isolated. So do I just cap off the pigtail, or do I dig a ground rod for the pigtail, or just attach to the bus bar. The sub-panel has only one bus bar which I guess is to be used as ground.
Thanks!
Thanks!
#2
Dave,
Lets start at the beginning.
Yes, your subpanel must have the neutral and ground bars separated and isolated.
The bar that you have is the neutral bar. You must install a ground bar or a ground lug to hold the ground wire. If grounds are currently on the neutral bar you will need to take them off and put them under individual screws on a ground bar which is screwed into the panel. If it is a newer panel there are already manufactured screws and ground bars that you can purchase to install.
Now, regarding your GFI. The white curled pigtail on a GFI breaker is NOT a ground. It is a neutral and must go on the neutral bar.
The neutral of the curcuit must be taken off the neutral bar and put under the white,(neutral) screw on the GFI breaker.
Lets start at the beginning.
Yes, your subpanel must have the neutral and ground bars separated and isolated.
The bar that you have is the neutral bar. You must install a ground bar or a ground lug to hold the ground wire. If grounds are currently on the neutral bar you will need to take them off and put them under individual screws on a ground bar which is screwed into the panel. If it is a newer panel there are already manufactured screws and ground bars that you can purchase to install.
Now, regarding your GFI. The white curled pigtail on a GFI breaker is NOT a ground. It is a neutral and must go on the neutral bar.
The neutral of the curcuit must be taken off the neutral bar and put under the white,(neutral) screw on the GFI breaker.
#4
Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 111
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
ground bar question
Just for my own info. Why is a seperate bar required for ground. Both are fastened to the panel which is grounded back to the main so esentially arent they connected anyway? I understand that you can put 2 ground wires under 1 screw but only 1 neutral under a screw and never a neutral and ground under th same screw but am confused as to why 2 seperate bars are required.
Never to old to learn!
Never to old to learn!
#5
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Central New York State
Posts: 13,245
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
The neutral bar is NOT to be connected to the panel. The neutral bar must be electrically isolated from the panel. That little green screw that is supplied should be taken out and thrown away if the panel is being used a sub panel.
#6
Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 111
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
Thanks, so the single bar that came in the panel is the neutral and should be isolated from the panel when it was manufactored, right? So I can just buy a ground bar and attach it to the panel for the ground wires. I didnt look that closely but thought the 1 bar that was there was fastened directly to the panel. How is it isolated since it is attached to the panel. Sorry to be so dense but this is an outdoor installation and I want to make sure it is right.
#7
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Central New York State
Posts: 13,245
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
If you look closely, you will see that the bar that came with the panel is not connected directly to the panel, but has spacers that keep it from making contact. That green screw is used to make the connection. It should be removed and thrown away if this is used as a sub panel.
#8
It always looks connected to me too, even if I look closely. Sometimes I have to use an ohmmeter to verify that it isn't. Of course this test only works before you connect up any wires to the panel.
Most panels come with an optional bonding screw or strap that bonds that neutral bar to the panel. In a subpanel, you need to make sure that you don't install it, or that you remove it if it was installed in the factory.
Just as an aside, the very intuitive but very flawed argument of "but they are already connected in the main panel" is responsible for the creation of a lot of serious safety hazards by some well-meaning but uninformed people. The reason why grounding wires and neutral wires must be connected in one and only one place is a difficult concept to get your mind around. And the full explanation has filled many a book.
Most panels come with an optional bonding screw or strap that bonds that neutral bar to the panel. In a subpanel, you need to make sure that you don't install it, or that you remove it if it was installed in the factory.
Just as an aside, the very intuitive but very flawed argument of "but they are already connected in the main panel" is responsible for the creation of a lot of serious safety hazards by some well-meaning but uninformed people. The reason why grounding wires and neutral wires must be connected in one and only one place is a difficult concept to get your mind around. And the full explanation has filled many a book.
#9
Member
hello Daveinsandiego ,
looks like david filled u in correctily, i might add that its quite allright to drive a ground rod and attach the ground bar to this rod. if u have any more ? feel free to post or e-mail me
looks like david filled u in correctily, i might add that its quite allright to drive a ground rod and attach the ground bar to this rod. if u have any more ? feel free to post or e-mail me
#10
Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 111
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
Thanks all,
As usual you guys were right on. The neutral was indeed isolated, I have installed a ground bar and moved all ground wires to it so everything should be correct and safe now. Glad I checked this site I have had this wired wrong just lucky someone didnt get hurt.
Thanks again.
As usual you guys were right on. The neutral was indeed isolated, I have installed a ground bar and moved all ground wires to it so everything should be correct and safe now. Glad I checked this site I have had this wired wrong just lucky someone didnt get hurt.
Thanks again.
#11
Baire, please make 100% sure that you in fact have a grounding connection (separate from the neutral connection) between your subpanel and the main panel. If not, your changes made the installation more dangerous (because you effectively eliminated your equipment grounding connections) rather than safer.
Do a continuity test between the neutral and grounding bars in the subpanel. Their must be continuity (not via the subpanel, but via the main panel). Otherwise, you have a severe hazard.
Do a continuity test between the neutral and grounding bars in the subpanel. Their must be continuity (not via the subpanel, but via the main panel). Otherwise, you have a severe hazard.
#12
Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 111
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
Thanks,
There is a bare twisted ground wire back to the main panel that connetcs to the grounding bar in the sub panel. The sub is supplied by a 4 wire feed from the main, 2 hot (connected to the hot lugs), 1 neutral (connected to the neutral bar) and 1 ground (connected to the ground bar). In the main panel the blacks are connected to a 100 amp breaker, the white to the neutral and the bare ground to the grounding bar. There is no ground wire connected to the neutral bar in the sub panel due to the removal of the "green screw" mentioned in an earlier post. I have GFCI breakers in the panel which all work properly when the test button is pushed all supplied items are working properly, pool pump, outside recepticles, lights & receptcles in a gazebo and receptcles in a storage building.
I really appreciate you advice and help on this issue.
There is a bare twisted ground wire back to the main panel that connetcs to the grounding bar in the sub panel. The sub is supplied by a 4 wire feed from the main, 2 hot (connected to the hot lugs), 1 neutral (connected to the neutral bar) and 1 ground (connected to the ground bar). In the main panel the blacks are connected to a 100 amp breaker, the white to the neutral and the bare ground to the grounding bar. There is no ground wire connected to the neutral bar in the sub panel due to the removal of the "green screw" mentioned in an earlier post. I have GFCI breakers in the panel which all work properly when the test button is pushed all supplied items are working properly, pool pump, outside recepticles, lights & receptcles in a gazebo and receptcles in a storage building.
I really appreciate you advice and help on this issue.
Last edited by baire1265; 05-26-05 at 12:43 PM.
#13
Okay, sounds good.
By the way, the fact that the GFCIs trip when the test button is pressed is irrelevant here. That would happen no matter what the state of the grounding.
By the way, the fact that the GFCIs trip when the test button is pressed is irrelevant here. That would happen no matter what the state of the grounding.
#14
What about the main panel?
My main panel only has 1 bus bar too. If I install a breaker or circuit with a graound wire, can I use the same bar for both neutral and ground? It appears from other posts I've seen here that it's fine as long as ground wires and neutral wires are not under the same screw?
thanks...
thanks...
#15
Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 111
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
Jake,
please read the posts above, that is a question that I had that started this process. In short you have to have a seperate grounding bar. If you read all the posts from the top it should clarify it for you hope this helps.
please read the posts above, that is a question that I had that started this process. In short you have to have a seperate grounding bar. If you read all the posts from the top it should clarify it for you hope this helps.
#16
Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 111
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
John,
By sounds good do you mean I have finally gotten it right/safe? I hope so but sure am glad I started asking questions, you guys have been a big help and I certainly appreciate all the good advise.
Thanks again.
By sounds good do you mean I have finally gotten it right/safe? I hope so but sure am glad I started asking questions, you guys have been a big help and I certainly appreciate all the good advise.
Thanks again.
#17
No, no. Jake is talking about the main panel (more precisely, the panel where the main disconnect is). Rules are different there. You may use the same bar, as long as you give each white wire a hole to itself. The only reason to install another bar is if you run out of holes.
Yes, yes. "Sounds good" means "right/safe".
Yes, yes. "Sounds good" means "right/safe".
#18
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 3
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
im a little confused here
So the neutral connection in the main panel can be connected to the the ground bus bar, just not in the sub panel where it has to be connected to a separate neutral bar right?
#19
Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Dry Side of Washington State
Posts: 685
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
The white wire on the GFCI breaker is always connected to the neutral bar, like the other white wires, in a sub panel or main panel.