How Many Wires Allowed??

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  #1  
Old 06-30-02, 10:15 AM
K
kpell
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How Many Wires Allowed??

Could someone point me to the site that has the #wires(Size) per CU In. I saw it somewhere but can't seem to find it anywhere now. I have a 20cuin junction box and I am running Romex 12/2 wg. Anyone know???

Thanks,

Kenny
 
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  #2  
Old 06-30-02, 10:31 AM
J
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The rules aren't quite that simple. Here's a brief overview for your specific situation.

First, divide the box size by 2.0 (for 14-gauge wire) and by 2.25 (for 12-gauge wire). So for 20 cubic inches and 12-gauge wire, you get 8 and some change.

So start with 8 wires. This translates into three 12/2 cables (2 conductors times three cables, plus one for all the grounding conductors, plus room for one wire left over).

But if you put a receptacle or switch in that box, you'll need to reduce the number to two 12/2 cables.

There are a number of other considerations. I have assumed that none of these wires pass through the box without a splice, but the number is different if any do that. The number is also affected by cable clamps and other things that might be in the box.

Try this site for the long version of this story.
 
  #3  
Old 06-30-02, 10:51 AM
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brymags
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Kenny,
Iím not sure of the etiquette of referring other forums on this site, but Denis b, the guy that won't answer your questions on handyman wire, does maintain a site with lots of good info-- "links and useful info by denis b"

http://www.handymanwire.com/cgi-bin/...c&f=2&t=003511

scroll down to link 31 for box and conduit fill tables. He also clarifies some industry specific terminology near the top of the page, terms as: wire, conductors, cable, outlets, receptacles, plugs, grounding, grounded, bonding etc. This is useful in keeping questions clear and understanding answers.
Good luck,
Bryan
 
  #4  
Old 06-30-02, 02:41 PM
K
kpell
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Brymags,

Yeah, I know Dennis won't answer my questions, I've posted several there and some disappear and some go unanswered. I've no idea why I was blackballed. But anyway from the content and knowledge of this site and Wg's site. I will probably never ask another question there. Sometimes I see him answer a question then after someone reply's and say's he's wrong and tell's him the NEC code, poof that answer and the reply is gone and poof the correct answer suddenly appears with his name on it. Sounds strange to me. I've noticed that me and just a couple other guys don't get any reply's but amazingly everyone else gets all kinds of replys.

Anyway like I said Wg's site is much better than Dennis's in my opinion.

Thanks again Wg and Dennis.

Regards,

Kenny

P.S. I wonder if Dennis is the inspector for my city, I've gotten as much help from him as I have my inspector. Ha Ha..
 
  #5  
Old 06-30-02, 07:08 PM
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Wgoodrich
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Bryon, as far as I know there is no problem providing a link to a site that you think may help. The more sites the more info is provided to all. This forum is intended to try and help the DIY. Often times the links provided on this forum in a reply adds to that help. Often times others will look the site you suggest. If there is a problem with accuracy and if the site is a valid site that cares to be accurate, they welcome a mistake being pointed out. I have had several in this forum point out mistakes or misinterpretaions in my articles on the home wiring site. If to help is the goal then accuracy and avaialbility and the knowledge of what is out there is vital.

I understand it to be perfectly fine to suggest a web site that you have gained knowledge from if it will help someone in their quest. Read the archives. There is plenty of site links that show from time to time.

Say what you believe, as long as your reply is in a positive manner you will be welcomed in your thoughts. If someone disagrees with your thought receive it with good intent. Don't just take if for granted they are right and you are wrong. Look for reference numbers and do your own research in what they say.

Accuracy and helping others is the goal of this forum and I am proud of its diversity and freedom of speech atmosphere and I am proud to be a part of this forum it has helped many to learn.

Wg
 
  #6  
Old 07-07-02, 03:29 PM
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jd3003
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to KPELL...

It is not a good thing to undermine anothers good name and efforts in a public forum..very tacky..and suspect of your intentions.

You appear to run down ,both electricians and also electrical inspectors.

These trades people work for free, to provide us with safe and knowledgeable advice.

You do not have a constitutional right to anothers hard earned knowledge.

jd3003
 
  #7  
Old 07-07-02, 04:25 PM
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kpell
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To Jd3003

To JD3003,

I don't know who you are nor do I care, I have been nothing but complimentary to anyone that has tried to help me or responded to my posts. If you have a problem with me email me and I will see what the problem is. As for the comment by me and BRYMAGS they are nothing but true, if you will look at that forum you will see that none of my questions have been replied to and some (which you can't see) have been erased. I have since changed my alias on that site and have gotten replys with no problems. I do not know if it was something with my alias, maybe he thought I was someone else. But what I stated was nothing but true. This was brought to my attention by brymags ON THAT SITE and apparently he noticed it and posted it ON THAT SITE. As well as he did respond to the same thing on this site. Like I said I have never run down his name or anyone elses for that matter and have never said a bad thing about anyone on this site or any other site for that matter. As for my snide comments about the "OTHER SITE" they are nothing but true, just log on and look for youself, pull up my alias and see if any of my questions are answered or even responded to. I don't badmouth anyone especially anyone that has helped me, or even attempted to help me. I don't know if this is appropriate to post this here but I am just responding to your accusations and defending myself and others. I believe every one in this country has freedom of speech and I will use it when I feel it is necessary. As for Denis's site, yes there is lots of good info on his site and at his links. But I have had a problem with it as well as many others that have been brought to my attention. As for the electrical inspectors I have said nothing about "MINE IN MY CITY" that wasn't true, Ask WG if I have ever been rude or snide with him. I have been nothing but complimentary to him and others that have helped and even to those that have tried to help and responded. As wg said it is inspectors like that that give "INSPECTORS" a bad name, I am paraphraseing because I don't have the post in front of me, like he told me they are there to help you, or should be, and they should tell you what is wrong and should try to help you make your house safe for you and your family to live in. Sorry everyone for the heated topic, and my apologies if this is inappropriate. This site is here to help people and they have helped me and many others alot.

Thanks for all the help.

Regards,

KP
 
  #8  
Old 07-07-02, 04:33 PM
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kpell
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To JD3003

As for you JD3003 who are you? with your one post and just signing up today. Tell me I'd like to know. Sorry all just got alittle heated when I saw he just registered to make a comment about me.

Regards,

Kenny
 
  #9  
Old 07-07-02, 04:42 PM
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kpell
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Well I guess JD3003 was Denis, Because my new alias on his forum all my posts are "poof" gone. Oh well I guess I'll just post here from now on seeings how he thinks I'm someone else.
 
  #10  
Old 07-07-02, 07:42 PM
K
kpell
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FYI

I found the site I was asking for in the beginning of this thread, it is uglys.wescodirect.com there is alot of useful information, to get to the table click on Tables, it's about half way down the page, look at the table at the top of the page on the right, it tells cu inches of boxes and how many of what size of wire is allowed. it's a little small but you can copy it into another application and blow it up. Thanks for all the reply's hope someone else finds this talbe usefuluglys.wescodirect.com

KP
 
  #11  
Old 07-07-02, 11:44 PM
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FREDDYG_001
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kpell, denis B is very protective of his forum and does not like outsiders answering the post. I've viewed this on many occasions when other electricans would answer question right and he would in a sense ignored that electricans answer. I think John Nelson answered several post a few months ago I followed and I don't think denis liked his answers. The last time I was over there was in march when I answer a post on squareD service panels. Don't get me wrong, denis b knows electrical and that is his forum and his the man over there.



Fred
 
  #12  
Old 07-08-02, 06:41 AM
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Matt Marsh
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Freddy,

Its the "Denis B show" because he has forced all of the other moderators away (including me). He bulled his way into becoming a moderator, and then proceeded to tick everyone else off. If you will notice, Denis is only one of three moderators listed on the site, there use to be more.


Kpell,

Even though registration is not a requirement, it drives him crazy if you do not. Maybe thats how you got off to a bad start with Denis, but anything is possible with that egoist. Matt
 
  #13  
Old 07-08-02, 08:00 AM
K
kpell
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I don't disagree that he is knowledgeable he just needs some people skills if he is going to be a moderator or his numbers will be dwindleing. I did register as soon as I found the site. I asked one question and he basically replied like I was an idiot. I politely told him that I was by no means an expert but I had rewired a few houses in the past so I wasn't a beginner either. From then on it was downhill. deleteing posts and net answering posts. I have seen several others lend a helping hand with their comments with no recourse from him. I was nothing but nice and as far as I know I was not degrading or disrespectful in any way. I understand it is "HIS" forum but it looks like I am not the only one that has had problems. He just needs to not take something so personal when someone replies. He is not the only authority on the NEC, and every one interprets it differently from time to time. That is why we are here to fully explain and understand.

Thanks for your replies, it's good to know I'm not the only one.

Regards,

Kenny
 
  #14  
Old 07-08-02, 09:57 AM
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Matt Marsh
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Kpell,

Don't take it personal, it is him not you. I'd also like to add that it is not HIS forum, he is only one of several moderators. He'd like you to think it is his forum, but it is not.

Most moderators (including myself) were asked if they would like to become a moderator, but in Denis' case he asked the administrator. At that time, I was the only moderator at the electrical forum. The administrator then asked me if I wanted some help. I work a fulltime rotating shift schedule, and help sounded great! I also requested that he ask Jim to come aboard, and shortly thereafter Pat came on board. I think Pat maybe answered two or three posts before Denis scared him off, and Jim had problems with Denis from day one. At first Denis was very cordial to me, but eventually he started to pull the same stunts with me as he did with everyone else. I finally got so fed up with it all that I asked the administrator to remove me as moderator.

If you have a complaint, you should email Chris Tabone, the forum administrator at [email protected] This is the only way that they know of any problems.

Matt
 
  #15  
Old 07-08-02, 07:23 PM
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Well well, so others have started to notice the cracks in a certain moderators facade (sp?).

Like Indy I was a moderator on the other site. Denis did not like being corrected at all. It was all his way or no way. I saw a few things differently than he did, but I would not let me ego get in the way.

KP, I cannot say if I say your posts while I was still answering over there. I had taken a break from the belittlement from his ego.

Recently someone posted about where to drill a joist. I added the the 1 1/2" depth was only for protection from nails and screws but not necessarily the best place to drill to preserve the strength of the framing member. His response was that I was nitpicking. Oh well, ignorance shows in many ways.

PS, Hi Indy
 
  #16  
Old 07-08-02, 11:37 PM
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brymags
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Sorry

WG, John Nelson, Ron, Joe and everyone else that makes this forum the professional forum that it is, I apologize for my un-professional remarks. I guess I got caught up in the history.
Sorry,
Bryan
 
  #17  
Old 07-09-02, 12:42 AM
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DaveB.inVa
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I guess Im about to get all my posts over at handymanwire deleted but oh well. True Denis is very knowledgeable but arrogant. I used to feel really bad for Jim especially and never knew what happened to Indy. I suppose the newest moderator Sparky518 will feel the same sooner or later.

Never fear though, he is just a man, like any other man except he has a mallard on his shoulder.... and the mallard studies the code as well.http://www.handymanwire.com/cgi-bin/...ile&u=00000006


I would suppose the next time I post there I too will be acused of weaving a clever thread...
 
  #18  
Old 07-09-02, 08:27 AM
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Matt Marsh
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Brymags,

You're very welcome! The three other people that you mentioned would be great choices for moderators, I'm not sure that I can dedicate as much time to it as I did back then. But its Chris' site, its up to him.


John, WG, Ron, and Joe, I also apologize for dragging this trash into your great forum.

Bave B,

I sure wish Chris would have contacted you to become a moderator way back when! It looks as though later is sooner for Sparky518 (sigh). I did a search of all of his posts, and Denis had added his two cents in his normal belittling style to every one of Sparky's posts.

Whispers to Dave..... "wood duck" LOL
 
  #19  
Old 07-09-02, 01:51 PM
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jd3003
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Is Matt Marsh really apologetic ,or is he using this DIY site as a means of character assination?

Does he really give a hoot ?

I feel that I have no choice but to respond ,in order to preserve a bit of my hard earned reputation and present some of these characters for what they are....so lets get on with it..these are your choices...and your doings.

This is a copy of a post rcvd from Mr Marsh a year ago .
........................................................................................
........................................................................................
LOL
So you've discovered ol Wgoodrich ...... yeah isn't he a charm? If you dig back at those bulletin boards a couple months ago, you'll find a similarly absurd thread that he and I battled back and forth on for a long time about extending 2-wire branch circuits. He twisted everything back and forth the very same way until finally enough people with authorative positions cornered him.
The thread started out with some guy asking how he could add some "new" receptacles to an exsisting 2-wire branch circuit. John Nelson (who by the way isn't too far characterwise from ol WG) offered that the guy could install a GFCI receptacle and then extend the new receptacles from that. Thats when I chimed in, telling John that article 210-7d only applies to the "replacement" of exsisting receptacles, not for extending branch circuits. I went on to explain that the only option provided by the code for extending 2-wire branch circuits was outlined in article 250-130c. Thats when I met WG LOL. We went back and forth for several days before he suggested that I pose this question at the IAEI site... so I did. Of course everyone agreed that in order to extend from an exsisting 2-wire branch circuit, you must provide an EGC. One of the moderators (Bill Addis) at the ECN site emailed me and gave me a little background about wgoodrich, explaing that the guy is a real LULU.
It was about a month later when I again interupted John Nelson when he told another guy that if he installed a 4-wire feeder to a seperate building that he didn't need a GES at the second building. I again took the question to the IAEI site (posted 5/23/01).That was the thread that really started the battle between ol WG and resqcapt19 that you refer to, when I refered resqcapt19 to the battle going on over at DIY.com between WG and I. No doubt about it, you can count on flaming arguments when wgoodrich is around LOL.
If you want to read another interesting thread, check out the one at the Mike Holt site entitled "Basic 220v theory". This particular thread made it obvious to several other electricians that the guy named Dspark's knowledge of the subject was analogous to a person not being able to differentiate between a bag of scat, and a popular floor wax made famous in the early 20th century.
it especially pisses me off when unregistered people
answer posts!
Matt
..............................................................................
...............................................................................
This is a copy of a post ..and will be forwarded to all principals.

This is not a good thing what is taking place here, on both sites...and I sincerely apologize for having to feel that I must defend myself against these jokes and character defamations....that leave me bewildered and hurt...but we must define who the victims are here.....and who is most capable of running down anothers good name....some of these others may be aliases ..I have no way of knowing... ...thank you
 
  #20  
Old 07-10-02, 10:54 AM
M
Matt Marsh
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Well I guess I really had that coming didn't I!

First of all Denis, that was a private email letter, not a public "post" as you are infering. Posting that letter here is no different than recording a private telephone conversation without permission. You could't dispute any of the things that I said in the previous posts in this thread, so you do what any 7 year old would do and resort to anything you can do to get back. You are a little man, and you truly have no scruples.

I'm gone!
 
  #21  
Old 07-10-02, 12:02 PM
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Sparksone42
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KPBELL to answer your question, the article that you are looking for is in the National Electrical Code. More specifically the table that you are looking for is Table314.16(A). This is the table that tells you how many conductors, all of the same size that you can put a particular box. The box sizes are outlined in this table as well. Table 314.16(B) will give you the information as to what each wire guage is valued at as far as cubic inch fill.

Make sure that you read and understand all of article 314.16 first as it tells you how to use the table and how calculate the deductions for cable clamps and devices when they are installed in the box.

Hope this helps!
 
  #22  
Old 07-10-02, 02:38 PM
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Wgoodrich
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Matt it looks like you and I received a cheap shot by the posting of a private email that you provided to another person with intent of privacy between two people.

I especially commend you for your strength in not denying, you, as the author of the information that you intended to remain private. You showed strong integrity in your standing up to your embarrisment that was dealt to you. That embarrisment to you in my opinion was produced in an improper manner by others out of your control.

YOu are a valuable asset to this forum and hope that you continue to add your replies in helping those seeking knowledge that you have to offer, even if we have to agree not to agree at times. We both continued to show respect with each other throughout any deep discussions in two interpretations of the written text of the NEC. True intent is what we seek those deep discussions were informative to many.

You make me and this forum proud due to your show of strength in that embarrasing post of your private communication, without any denial attempts on your part. That takes strength that I respect.

Stay with us, people need more than one view on a subject. Your knowledge and professional method of issuing those views are an asset to this forum. You have helped many and hope you continue to do so.

I am proud of your strength during a time of adversity.

Hope to see your replies in the DIY a long time in the future for the good of those seeking knowledge.

Please don't be gone due to an adversity. Try to be strong and stay where you are not only needed but wanted for your knowledge.

Wg
 
  #23  
Old 07-10-02, 04:12 PM
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Matt Marsh
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WG,

You are a very understanding man, I can't thank you enough!

Matt
 
  #24  
Old 07-10-02, 04:37 PM
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Wgoodrich
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Mat everyone has a right to an opinion. Often times first impressions tend to be off in what a person reads and a change of that original opinion often happens.

You have a lot to offer those seeking knowledge in this forum. I have long ago recognised that knowledge you possess by the deep discussions we have had over time.

You have a lot to be proud of and one thing is your sense of integrity in an adverse time. For that you can be proud.

I hold no hard feeling concerning what you believed a year ago or even now. You show good citizenship by helping many without seeking anything in return. For that also you can be proud.

I have watched over time many who have benifited from your time spent issuing replies in this forum. For that I can overlook a minor indiscression of issuing what you believed to be true at the time. The most important part was that you stood up to your embarrasment like a proud man that deserved to be proud.

There are many that have criticized me over the years. If the are man enough to tell me if they have a problem then I will listen and take the critisizm in the proper light. No person is perfect.

Your opinion you planned to keep between you and a trusted friend. You did not blast me by rumors. It is obvious that was not your intent. You did no wrong in issuing what you felt at the time in a private conversation that you had no clue would be published. I would be a weak minded man to get mad at an adverse condition that I found out by an unprofessional method. You meant me no harm that was obvious. May have been some testostron involved between to strong men. But you issued your thoughts in private, not as an attack to me. I never saw you attacking me in our deep discussions. You may have been frustrated but I probably was too. I think it is called frustration that we could not convince the other to see what we saw at the time.

To discuss differing views in a professional and respectful manner is a discussion seeking a positive result in two different thoughts on one subject. Knowledge is the goal of a discussion.

To discuss differing views in a name calling contest is an argument. To argue and blast each other is a non positive action without hope of any positive outcome. Knowledge is not the goal ego is the goal.

What I remember between you and me was deep discussions on a subject we both love to dig into for the true meaning of the NEC. That is a discussion in my mind showing respect to all parties.

I do not remember you ever showing me disrespect in your intent including in this post.

As far as I can see we are fine with each other and still have respect for each other seeking knowledge. That is good.

Stay in there it will get better.

Wg
 
  #25  
Old 07-10-02, 11:37 PM
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Matt Marsh
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WG,

I wanted to write more in my last post, but I was at work, and my online time there is very limited.

Anyway, I have to let you know that my respect for you had increased over the past year, and exponentially so tonight. You're so right, first impressions do tend to be off. I might have shown integrity in standing up to this embarressment, but that integrity pales in comparison to that which you have shown in your last two posts. Again, thank you, and I deeply apologize for all of this. Matt
 
  #26  
Old 07-10-02, 11:55 PM
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brymags
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It's a penny for your thoughts, but here's my 2 cents worth

WG and Matt,
I have never seen either one of you use criticism as a defense or for self fulfillment, in my opinion that is a true sign of strong character and has helped you both earn a good reputation.

Itís not up to me but maybe this thread should go away.
Respectfully,
Bryan
 
  #27  
Old 07-11-02, 01:18 PM
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Wgoodrich
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brymags, I can understand you thoughts about maybe this thread should disappear. However the habit of leaving what has been written some good and some bad is is one of many points that makes me proud of the DIY and maybe is the inner strength of this forum.

This forum has built in its own existance a lack of politics, prejudice etc. The real strength of this forum seems to be our ability to experience adversity in a post and end in a professional manner. Many can learn in our weaknesses as well as our strengths. In this post we have both good and bad examples and the resulted affects of those good and bad examples of professionalism.

Those that have been invovled or talked about in this post are strong in their self belief and inner confidence and can heal, learn and survive any bruises that may have been experienced in the post. Yet many can see the positive professional strength that appeared in the ending lines of this post and maybe by leaving this post on line to say show our laundry so to speak we can promote future professionalism and respect for those that suffered or learned from the existance of this post.

There can be good results from even the most adverse conditions. The DIY seems to flourish in professionalism and the ability for all to learn from good and bad.

I believe that I can gain strength from the experience of reading this post and I seem to have been one that paid a small price too. If the existance of this posts makes people stronger and better and more knowledgable as to what to do and not to do in the future. I can pay the small price I would have to pay if this post stayed on line. I suspect any spoken of in this site if I read them right can be unhurt and stronger in the long run from the results of this post.

I'd say that we should stay with the tradition of the DIY and let the post survive for a learning experience in hopes that it will make the future better possibly for all who read it. Learning is what we all frequent this forum for not only electrical but also good and bad examples of professionalism as a bonus.

Just my thoughts

Wg
 
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