Attn: WG..Novice question #2


  #1  
Old 07-19-02, 04:17 AM
Joe_F
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Attn: WG..Novice question #2

WG:

Thanks for the help on the battery charger. All good now. I've secured a 100 foot 14 gauge 3 prong extension cord for it if I ever need to use it at the other end of the driveway .

Trying to fix an old Oster "hair vac" for my 92 year old grandfather the barber. This thing easy outdates me by 25 years EASILY.

I noticed a very old plug that I want to change. Question:

1) 2 wires, white and black. No ground.

2) Assuming I can use the same plug I did for the battery charger(an Eagle electric 3 prong one with the clamp), what goes where and what about the green screw for the ground (there is no third prong on this old machine)?

I have to solder a connection inside the unit as well. It stopped working when he was giving me a haircut a few weeks ago. Lol.

Any help from you or one of the pros here is appreciated. Is there a rule of thumb for wire colors, identifiers and what goes where?

While I'm not averse to asking such novice questions, I'd like to learn more and be able to figure it out for myself one of these days . I'd like to know I can at least identify them and do the basics.

It's relieving to know even you guys in the trade scratch your head sometimes on simple stuff like this too. I don't feel so bad. Lol.

Thanks chief,
 
  #2  
Old 07-19-02, 04:45 AM
Sparksone42
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On the new Eagle brand plug you place the white wire on the connector end of the larger of the two blades. This would be on the left side of the plug if you are looking at it from the back where the cord enters and the black will go on the smaller of the two blades. You can't do anything with the grounding prong as you have no grounding conductor present in the cord.

Eagle aslo sells a plug with only two prongs that would be the replacement that you are looking for since the grounding prong will be of no use. The wiring configuration is the same, the white or neutral goes to the larger of the two blades and the hot goes on the smaller of the two.

Hope this helps.
 
  #3  
Old 07-19-02, 05:20 AM
Wgoodrich
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A three prong plug is not allowed to be installed on an appliance that is without the green grounding connection in the appliance.

While sparksone42 is correct in discribing the black and white wires connecting to the plug, you must not use a three prong plug but must use a two prong plug without a grounding prong.

If you installed a three prong plug to a two wire cord you would be creating a false sense of security.

There may be a possibility to find a mounting screw in the appliance where you could replace the two wire cord with a three wire cord and connect the green wire to the metal case of the appliance by using a mounting screw making contact between that green wire of the new cord and the metal case of the appliance. Then you could install your three prong plug.

HOpe this helps

Wg
 
  #4  
Old 07-19-02, 08:57 AM
Sparksone42
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Pardon my error!!! WG is completely correct, you may not use a three prong plug on a two conductor cord. This is stated in 406.9 (E) I missed it the first time around.
Thanks for the correction WG
 
  #5  
Old 07-19-02, 12:57 PM
Joe_F
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Ok, here's another one for ya , for the simpleton in me.

I believe the screws are colored, silver and brass.

Which goes to which? However, I suppose the two prong one will really have the prong size stand out (on the three prong frankly, they look like the same size. .

Thanks again.
 
  #6  
Old 07-19-02, 01:35 PM
MTgets
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Hi Joe,

thanks for the help in automotive!

The silver is the white- neutral
The brass is the black- hot

Also a little tip, the hot is the small blade and the small hole in a outlet, the nuetral is bigger. Kinda like you cant stick your finger in the small hot hole, (you cant stick a finger in either but thats how you can remember!!
 
  #7  
Old 07-19-02, 04:28 PM
Joe_F
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Automotive...ok, um sure (don't remember your car )

Folks,

I picked up the Eagle plug this evening. Two prong job for 3 bucks at my favorite hardware store. I have to solder a wire in the unit and replace the plug and should be good to go.

My grandfather says, "The plug looks good". Ya know how older folks think. Lol. It's dangerous and it's coming off in favor of a new plug.

I'll advise y'all . Thanks!
 
  #8  
Old 07-19-02, 07:14 PM
Joe_F
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Ok fellas..why do they have to make it difficult? Lol.

BOTH screws on the plug are brass. However, the part under the screw (a flat clamp like device),has one brass and one like a reddish tinge to the part.

Is this trying to tell me something? Or has Eagle's quality gone the way of Corona? (part is made in Mexico now )Why can't they just make them white and black and come with instructions ? Seems like this stuff is too important to be guessing and gambling!
 
  #9  
Old 07-19-02, 09:21 PM
J
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Joe, just follow the tips that MTgets provided. Connect the white wire to the side of the receptacle that has the wider slot, and the black wire to the side of the receptacle that has the narrower slot.
 
  #10  
Old 07-20-02, 11:58 AM
Wgoodrich
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Joe, if you can't follow the color scheme of brass and silver on the screws and if you can't follow MTgets and John's suggestion using the width of the plug spades to identify polarity then I would suggest you bought an old stock cheapy plug that was without polarity called an unpolorized plug used in the old days. If this is so the go out a splurge and buy the more expensive two prong plug that either has the brass and silver screws or the wider spade and narrow spade on your new plug so that you won't be inviting any trouble or safety concerns.

Wg
 
  #11  
Old 07-20-02, 06:38 PM
S
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I am curious,,, Joe,,, You are a counter man at a parts store ,, correct? You dont actually work on cars?
 
  #12  
Old 07-20-02, 08:38 PM
Joe_F
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SBerry: No and yes. I don't work as a parts man. I work on the manufacturer side. Chances are if you buy a part in a parts store, I had a handle in it.

I set up the pricing. I catalog the part. I research its applications. I decide who it comes from. I decide the packaging, I write the instruction sheets, etc, etc. etc. Could I work a parts counter? Sure.

Yes I do work on my own cars. I have six of them. I also work on those of my friends and relatives. My friend had some extensive rust in his 1991 Shadow. We made up patch panels and fit them in. All primed and ready to go. Paint comes soon . This guy along with some of my other friends have done it all...and we're always learning and reading to find new ways to do it right.

WG: I don't mind splurging, it's just annoying that they do that. The slots to me seem like the same width! They don't look any different! I'll have another look at them.

I'll gladly shoot a picture and post/send it to anyone. Again perhaps a novice question, but honestly, they should do a MUCH better job identifying this stuff!

I put in a Leviton outlet some time ago and the instruction card was clear. Black wire to this colored screw (brass), white wire to this colored screw (silver). Done, easy, no questions or doubt I did it wrong. The device had easy to distinguish screws as did the wires in the wall.

Seems to me Eagle could do a better job. Obviously "Safety is no Accident" seems to not hold true for them

Again, I will shoot a photo and post this plug so you can see for yourself that I'm not making this up (or I'm missing something!)
 
  #13  
Old 07-20-02, 09:32 PM
S
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Here is an easy way to get the right colored wires on the right screws. Take the instruction card from the recept that you successfully wired and match them up with the new plug in you bought.
 
  #14  
Old 07-21-02, 10:08 AM
Joe_F
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The instruction card was for a plug and everything matched then. No questions. There was white and black in the wall and brass and silver on the outlet. The instructions were clear and it was done in five minutes. This is what should be on these things!

I'd like you guys to see this outlet. I'll try to post a photo here (but usually that's a problem it never shows up).

If someone would like to see a photo of this thing, maybe something will ring a bell with you.

1) The blades look to be the same height and width.
2) The screws inside are BOTH brass and only one of the clamps for the wires is a reddish color. No other distinguishing features on this thing. No instructions. Nothing. This is the same plug (but a 2 prong version) of what I bought for the charger as mentioned above. That one HAD a brass and a silver screw. Same thing, but with 2 prongs on this one. That's what's perplexing. It should be loud and clear! I've been trying to get a good photo for you guys to see, but I can't seem to get a clear shot of the detail .
3) I have a cord with white and black coming out and to me, the novice, it's not really clear what goes where.

I'll try another post with a picture.

Thanks all for sticking with me here. I think I'm missing something obvious but the plug should be clear or come with direction.
 

Last edited by Joe_F; 07-21-02 at 10:28 AM.
  #15  
Old 07-23-02, 06:12 AM
Joe_F
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Thumbs up

I emailed Cooper Lighting (they own Eagle) to see what they have to say about it.

Call me a novice, but I respect electricity and in my mind, these things should be clearly demarcated. I can tell you by looking at the plug, the blades are the same size and the screws are both brass inside, so what goes to what?

If they would have just make one brass and one silver, I'd know that black goes to brass (B to B) and white to silver . I'd be done! Lol.

Perhaps I got a badly made one with the wrong color screws? Lol.

I'll keep everyone posted. Thanks for sticking with this novice electrical guy. Hopefully I can return the favor someday in the automotive realm
 
  #16  
Old 07-24-02, 10:27 AM
Joe_F
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Thumbs up Quandary solved

Guys:

I called up Eagle Electric and got a nice gent on the phone. He said, "Oh, you have the non polarized version...the blades are the same size, right?" I said, "Yup, that's it".

As usual, WG is right. I will pitch this thing for the polarized version. That is where my brain got pinched. Lol.

He suggested since I have white and black coming out of my cord, that I could buy a polarized version (this is a non polarized version) and it would have the brass and silver screw which I know as:

Black from the appliance cord to the brass screw.
White from the appliance cord to the silver screw.

This would set me straight. I think it was what you guys were saying, but why do they still sell non polarized plugs if this is "better"?
 
  #17  
Old 07-24-02, 10:52 AM
S
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Actually that is a pretty good question Joe,,, Some loads dont care about polarity. Mostly resistance loads such as incandesant lamps (light bulbs) and toasters. A lot of stuff with brushes really doesnt care either. A milwaukee drill is an example. The plug is only oriented to fit the way it does because its grounded. The drill doesnt know any difference. It would work either way. Some double insulated tools are polarity directed because they want to switch the hot lead. I am sure you can find more detailed info from others here,, just trying to keep it simple.
 
  #18  
Old 07-25-02, 03:36 AM
Joe_F
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I'd rather go with the way it SHOULD be for safety. Also, if you think about it, a polarized plug will just simplify things. It will make the connections easy. Black to brass, white to silver. No questions.

I'm swapping this plug for a polarized version today. It will be safer and easier. I also have to solder a wire inside the unit as well. That is the reason it doesn't work. However, my grandfather thinks the plug is "safe". It's not, hence I'm going to change it.
 
  #19  
Old 07-25-02, 11:20 AM
Sparksone42
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Ok wait a minute here!!! In the last response it was said that the lamp doesn't care what polarity but, the lamp should have a polarized plug so that the neutral is plugged into the neutral. If that's not followed then a condition could exist where the metal parts of the lamp could theoretically become energized. Not to mention the fact that if the plug is in backwards the screwshell of the lamp base will be energized and someone changing that lamp could very well get shocked.

As for the plug that Joe has, he says that their is one spade with a reddish color. Maybe Wg or John can answer this: If we go by the code when the code makes reference to the neutral they consider it the identified conductor. Wouldn't that apply in this case, since a lamp cord has it's neutral identified by the ridge. Isn't this the same kind of thing or am I stretching things to the limit here.

Curious about other thoughts!!!
 
  #20  
Old 07-25-02, 11:25 AM
J
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Joe, any chance you could click off the check mark on "Show Signature" when you post. This thread takes a very long time to load.
 
  #21  
Old 07-25-02, 04:03 PM
Wgoodrich
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sparkone42, am not sure how to answer your question. It would be possible if one spade was silver and the other brass. To me a non polerized plug is a non polarized plug. I am not sure but believe that any plugs made today must be polarized. Although you are right that polarization is required on even a table lamp, I wonder if the referance being made about grounding and a table lamp may have confused the rule allowing a two prong receptacle on a table lamp or double insulated hand tool but requring a three prong plug for appliances. Wonder if that statement was made with the grounded leg and equipment grounding conductor being fused as one thought not separating the two entities. Table lamps etc. are not required to be with an equipment grounding conductor yet table lamps do require polarization.

I think these nonpolarized plugs are still on the market from old stock that was never sold. I still have some around from my younger days still in stock today because no one wanted to use them.

Problem with your question is even if that plus had a brass and silver blade but with the same size blade wouldn't John Q public not know the difference and plug the plug in any way they could?

Wg
 
  #22  
Old 07-25-02, 04:38 PM
S
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I have a realatively new toaster that has a non polar plug in and a lamp socket has a cardboard insulator protecting it from the metal casing that wouldnt insulate any better either way you wired the cord on. The lamp (light bulb) itself certainly doesnt know the difference. All those little power supplys for phones and chargers arent polarized either. I did recieve a new table lamp and it was polar plug but lets get real,,, a lot of that stuff just doesnt matter. If the guy really that concerned about grandaddys vac or his battery charger put a 3 wire cord on the damm thing and be done with it. He has about 25 times as much chance getting killed driving to the hardware store to buy a plug that he obviously has trouble figuring how to put on as he would using the thing standing in a frickin mud puddle.
 
  #23  
Old 07-25-02, 05:50 PM
Wgoodrich
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Copied section of NEC 2002

410.42 Portable Lamps.
(A) General. Portable lamps shall be wired with flexible cord recognized by 400.4 and an attachment plug of the polarized or grounding type. Where used with Edison-base lampholders, the grounded conductor shall be identified and attached to the screw shell and the identified blade of the attachment plug.


Wg
 
  #24  
Old 07-26-02, 09:57 AM
Joe_F
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SBerry:

There's no trouble now that I know what I'm up against. Better to be safe than sorry and ask and you shall receive. I will get the polarized plug and go from there. As for the battery charger, the original unit was a 3 prong plug and was replaced as such. The ground prong was removed and I don't like things that have been bypassed. Once someone here cleared it up for me, it was a piece of cake. People were telling me it was "safe", but I'm anal about any equipment that comes through my hands being 110%. I have owner's manuals and records for just about everything in my house from the major appliances my parents bought in 1968 to the tools I exchanged at Sears last week. I can tell you at a snapshot's glance what I have done to each and every one of them, down to the date.

Now what might seem elementary to me in automotive might give you a migraine...or vice versa in electrical.

The consensus I get here is just use a polarized plug, which is what the guy at Eagle told me too. Hence, I learned something. I also write instruction sheets as part of my job here in automotive. I can tell you that assuming is what kills you. You cannot assume that if you are writing a fuel system instruction sheet that the person will depressurize the fuel system as per the manufacturer's specs. You have to SPECIFY that in the manual or instruction sheet.

I'm not likely to be killed by going to the hardware store or doing the repair as I know what I need to get now. However, I have the utmost respect for electricity. Hence the reason for the novice question.

I'll advise when I get it all together how it went.
 
  #25  
Old 07-27-02, 12:55 PM
Joe_F
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Well, partial success. I swapped the plug for one that even has th blades a different color (brass and silver). Great idea. I got it hooked up in short order, taking my time.

However, I think it still needs more help. Put it all back together, and nothing. Laid it down, picked it up again, nothing. Clicked the switch a few times, and then it will go on. When it goes on it will stay running just fine it seems.

I did have to solder one wire (my grandfather had it apart when I got there), and that I did. Wondering if there is still problems there.

I suppose I should get out the multi meter and poke around a bit, taking it apart again. Any ideas?

Thanks,
 
  #26  
Old 07-27-02, 01:52 PM
Wgoodrich
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Sounds like you either have a wire that was disturbed causing a loose connection or you have a bad switch.

Just a couple of thoughts

Wg
 
  #27  
Old 07-28-02, 07:57 AM
Joe_F
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Thanks WG.

The switch is a simple on/off type, I'll get some #s off it. It's old, can you direct me to where I can get a direct replacement? It screws into the case of the machine, so I guess it must be exact to work.

I guess I should just hook the meter to each side of the switch and click it various times to see if I have continuity or not?

I suppose I'll also do the same thing on each motor wire to check for breaks or problems there.

Thanks again, any troubleshooting advice is appreciated here as well. Sorry for the novice questions, but this is how one learns, so I hope you don't mind.
 
  #28  
Old 07-28-02, 10:52 AM
Wgoodrich
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Your switch may show continuity until a load is applied then the switch fails due to that load. [burnt points inside the switch often causes this].

I suggest you install a temporary jumper wire around the switch if you can then try the tool to see if it works. Then this will confirm you switch being bad.

Just an idea.

Wg
 
  #29  
Old 07-29-02, 04:54 PM
Joe_F
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I'll do that, WG. I'll install an alligator clip test harness to see how it runs. If so, then I'll just try to find a replacement switch for it.
 
 

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